RRVFT

[nepenthes gracilis]

Where can you obtain this plant. I have seen some pictures of it and i would like it next year. Thanks. If anyone knows where I can obtain the "Giant" Variety of flytrap that is also appreciated. Nep.G.

[Tony Paroubek]

Royal Red comes from Australia. I am not aware of any retailers in the US carrying it. There is also a PBR number on it, so propagating it without permission and paying royalties is illegal I believe. Probably why you don't see it offered often. Most of the giant forms also originate in Australia.. primarily from Triffid Park who have selected and bred many many commercial varieties for size and vigor.

I don't know if the guys here are planning to offer these varieties in the near future.. If not I can add a few flytraps to my next shipments from Australia. That will most likely be in the spring.

Tony

[nepenthes gracilis]

Illegal big deal! There just plants. http://www.**********.com/iBhtml/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I know thier special but you should really be quiet about that if it is illegal. So you don't get in trouble. nep.G. Thanks Tony I really want one next year!

[Mondo]

How can you say that so casually?!
There not just plants.........forget it i couldn't even be bothered explaining myself.

[Tony Paroubek]

O yeah I should also mention that some of the reason probably has to do with difficulties of importing plants that have a dormant period from the southern hemisphere to the northern..The plants get really confused and there is a time period the plants don't do well while they are switching the seasons around.

Tony

(I am not even going to go into why I would never propagate a protected plant illegally)

[nepenthes gracilis]

Obviosly! Too complicated. But I really didn't mean Illegal Casualy Mondo. I meant big deal because if there are alot of RRVFT's then it shouldn't or would be a big deal since there is a large population that a FEW Plants are being propagated it wouldn't really be that big of as deal. So I should have put that in better words.Thanks for noticing. Nep.G.

[unknownclown]

Boy you aren't kidding I've been looking all over for this plant to help you out and I can't find it anywhere. But I'll keep looking http://www.**********.com/iBhtml/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[RamPuppy]

let's just not talk about the legality, illegality, or propigation of those plants here guys... I wouldn't want a patent holder to stroll along this site, and get pissy with jeff and Phil... I know it's a longshot, but let's be respectfull of it any how...

And if you patent holders do stroll along, your a piss ant for putting a patent on a plant. (In my own humble and non ********** affilliated position!) http://www.**********.com/iBhtml/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Alvin Meister]

If you got caught with an illegal Royal Red (as if) you could just say it was a Red Dragon-they are just the same except the leaves stay more rosetted: http://www.cpuk.org.uk/photos/1999/vft-royalred.jpg
http://www.cpuk.org.uk/photos/1999/vft-akairyu.jpg

[nepenthes gracilis]

I aggree with you 100% Rampuppy. It is stupid and ridiculous to put a patent on a plant! It's a plant for god's sake! Nep.G.

[unknownclown]

Yup I am also with you on this one RamPuppy 100% Grade A Piss Ant! Unless of course they see this and decide to share thier plants with us and make a few bucks http://www.**********.com/iBhtml/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif C'mon now don't be stingy! http://www.**********.com/iBhtml/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Tony Paroubek]

Why not put a patent on a plant you spend years developing something that is different from anything else on the market?? It cost alot of time, effort and money to develop something new and unusual. Think about the generations of plants that need to be raised and the numbers of plants before that special something HOPEFULLY comes along. How would you feel as soon as you released some, every commercial nursery and piles of hobbiest massed produced them and basically you lost the well earned income from your efforts?? Royal red and Red dragon do not look the same, although they are similar. Also bear in mind that Royal red was developed and registered several years or so before Red dragon existed.

Tony

[nepenthes gracilis]

Ohh I never knew that. I was just saying it was kind of a stupid idea that a plant is patented. Usually patents are on everyday items such as lawn mowers and computers and even little kids toys. That's all I was saying and No I wouldn't want all of my money going down the drain and out of my pocket if I created a new CP. I just may do some research and do that! Think of this a VFT and a Sundew. I would name it Drosera Musipula. :biggrin: http://www.**********.com/iBhtml/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Think of that! A really effective bug catcher! Nep.G.

[RamPuppy]

NG< talk to us after youv'e got your degree in advanced genetics!

Tony, My problem with patenting a plant is pretty simple, I am not in this hobby to make a butt load of money, I grow CP's because I love them, and I give most of my excess away to people just starting up, and people who help me in return...

Now, I do understand these guys made an investment, good for them, but I'' tell you what, when I buy something it's mine, and if it comes with the abilitiy to reproduce itself, and I feel like selling, then I guess I will just charge whoever buys it for the water, soil, and air and TIME of MINE that went into it...

I understand great people *like you and phil and jeff make a living in this as an Industry, and I think that's great... I don't know.. there are hundreds if not thousands of cultivars registered out there that don't have patents applied to them, people love the hobby, and love to share their creations, the patent makes me think the only reason the plant was created was to make money... and that just doesn't sit with me well...

And I do draw a distinction between people like you and the ********** guys, and the people who patented this plant, don't get me wrong, I am not against commercial gain, I just question the motives of the creators of this plant in this instance...

(Edited by RamPuppy at 10:30 pm on Nov. 6, 2001)

[Mondo]

Nep G i would just like to say i am sorry for having a go at you before. It was all my fault you didn't do anything...you see that day i went shopping and i saw 26 dead flytraps on the clearance shelf and i checked them and their rhyzomes were all mushy and smelly and then i read somewhere in one of your posts that you take pitcher plants and sphagum from a natural bog and i just got a bit ticked off-i mean i over reacted. Because you said you were going to have a nursury and sell cp's right,well i guess then when you are producing cp's in mass production you can put back the cp's you took from the bog. I was thinking and i think it would be really awsome if you had your bog so it was like out the front of your cp store-so customers could walk past the bog and see all these pitcher plants growing in a natural bog before they enter your cp nursury-i mean it would be fantastic! No other cp store in the world would have anything like that-i think you have potential as a cp grower cause you ask a lot of questions,and not supid ones like me but really though provoking ones. I was wondering if i would beable to post you a rrvft?

[nepenthes gracilis]

Mondo,I am still wondering are you still angry with me? i am willing to make a truce of peace if you are. Anyways respond back to me on that. now what do you mean by posting me a Royal Red? I have only took two S.Purpureaspp.Pureas from my bog. The sphagnum really dosn't matter since I take it in small quantities. The spot I took out a few weeks ago has already almost filled up again with new Spagnum. So Yes I do care about the bog. I would never ever try to de-plant and de-Spagnum moss it. Thanks Nep.G.

[Mondo]

Of course i'm not mad at you,i want a truce too although i think it's weather or not you will accept a truce from me or not-i don't think i deserve it the way i carried on. Well maybe when i save up a lot of money i would like to send you a rrvft -perhaps we can organise a trade,or do you think it would rot because it will take weeks to get to you. Although i probably won't beable to send you one anytime soon-perhaps in like 2 years so i don't think i should make any promises yet. The only problem really is the fact that i will get the plant through mail order-and it will be stressed from being in a box for like a week and then i will send it to you and it will be in a box for weeks-i'm not sure how it would survive all that stress...

[nepenthes gracilis]

Yes you deserve a truce. Don't talk like yourself that way! You don't derserve it you say. Don't put yourself down like that! That would be awesome to get a Royal Red from you! However it would be a little bit harsh on the plant. That will be up to you though. It probably would cost a sensible price,but I don't know oversea shipping. For god's sake were all meat-eating plant growers! Thanks Nep.G.

[Mondo]

Hey this is for everyone interested in wanting a rrvft. I just found out that triffid park sells rrvfts in tubes-like they are made through tissue culture and are sold in their sterile containers-all you need to do is harden them off and plant them in soil but this takes like 6 weeks. But the main thing is seeming they are sold in their containers like this it doesn't matter if it takes 2-3 weeks for the plant to get to you because they are grown under almost all shade and the container keeps in the humidity....go to http://www.triffidpark.com.au and read all about it:)

[nepenthes gracilis]

Great site Mondo. Nep.G.

[RamPuppy]

your only problem is getting them to new york! Triffid is in Australia, and I think you have to order at least a hundred.

[MixDJ]

I think you have to spend 100+ Ausy bucks or somthing. Then there is also 25% shipping cost.

Mix

do they have a wholesale program?

(evil grin)

[nepenthes gracilis]

I think I am going to forget this if it costs that much! I'll go for another Nepenthes or Sarracenia:) Nep.G.

[Tony Paroubek]

Triffid Park does not wholesale.
Next order to Triffid or to Exotica and I will get some Royal Red and maybe some other varieties. Triffids stock changes around, and not everything available as plants is available in TC.
Tony

[Mondo]

I am sure u don't have to spend &#36100.00+aus...

[Tony Paroubek]

HEHE you need to read the details for folks buying from them internationally. The phytosanitary certificate alone is 120 AUS.. plus the minimum order of 100 AUS in plants. So right there you are at 220 aus minimum plus shipping.
Tony

[Mondo]

See what i mean about the stupid regulations australian cp nurseries put up? I hate it-all this money!

Not that I agree with minimums ( that is why I will NEVER do it/them). Some places feel that they have to make it "worth their time" to do something.
I know I am not adding conversation...I am just venting. = )
People need to have access to these plants ( and all other things).

[Tony Paroubek]

Personally I think it's a different ball game if you have minimums for international orders vs domestic orders. Or wholesale vs retail. With international orders it's quite conceivable that it would cost more in time and effort to do the paperwork than you can make in profit on a single plant. Especially if you have to pay an employee. Sometimes in business Time is Money.. and Money is what keeps the business going.
Tony

But ya know...

We have shipped 1 plant to Canada...We have shipped 1 plant to Indoneisa....We have shipped a few plants to Japan.
Anyway...
Sometimes it is not about 'making money'. *We have 4 people that work here ( not on a regular basis...but they come in and help when needed). *They get paid whether we ship to Arkansas or Canada. *
In this world, I (if alone) want to make people happy. *( and I know that I am the loud minority ). *
People deserve the right to get the things that they want. *And if some one oveseas wants 1 common flytrap...well then ...I am willing to do ( I just wish that other places....that started off small too at one time....do the same). *I think that big business losses fact of what made them big...the little guy!

I am done.. *I am sorry...Certain things just create a spark in me and I feel that if things aren't said. *People do not know where you stand. *=/
This is by no means a nasty tone ( for those trying to figure it out.) This is merely a 'speech' *if you will. *Applause at the end will be welcome.

[Tony Paroubek]

O I am just debating!

Yes sometimes it is not about making money, but to make people happy. Unfortunately too much of that and you might end up telling the bankruptcy court.. "but I made them happy!"

T

I love a good debate ( or discussion...whichever word you perfer to use)
You play a good devil's advocate (oxymoron)

As long as you are good...good should only come to you.

It is not really 'costing' anyone to do a little extra. The plants are the same ( or service ). The money made is same no matter how or where you send it.
It is just offering it and allowing others to feel the happiness that you felt when you first got into these plants. That is what I want to do. And I know people are not like me, but just think if more were! :cool:
I do not promote my willingness to do things for everyone...but I try to make it a point to do what I can when I can.
I atleast give it a thought instead of a 'no'.

Your response senator. You have 2 mins. :biggrin:

[MixDJ]

*clap clap clap*
To take both sides of the argument, money is nothing without happiness but apparently in the world today happiness is nothing and someone is no-one without money....
wow, that sounds pretty cool

That would be right but...

Everyone is SOMEONE. Every person is defined by his or hers personality and traits.

And happiness is sometimes NOT having money.

Money is a necessary evil. To most people it is necassary and we all know it is evil.

If we all practised mom's philosiphy of 'sharing' ...we would be a great world.

[Dionaea Enthusiast]

Hey Jaie,
You're very right.
(time for my speech/rant) http://www.**********.com/iBhtml/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I've only been into plant collecting as a serious hobby for a few years now(it started with orchids, not cp), and I just realized that I've spent literally thousands of dollars, just to advance my own interests. I've got a lot to show for it, but the rest of my (material) life is somewhat weakened as a result. Translation: was it money worth spending? I consider money very necessary, but I wouldn't have said the same a couple thousand years ago--then, (predominantly) there was just trading! I'll give you this flytrap for your sundew, right? Then money came along, and here we are--the ultra rich, the ultra poor, and everyone in between. THAT is why my life is becoming a search for money, to fuel the start of an obsession. There are still many great people out there, willing to share their hobby with others(e.g. fatboy and Barry Meyers-Rice), and I thank you.
Big change in subject matter! Maybe you should start a forum called something like "CP and Intellectual Pursuit"!
http://www.**********.com/iBhtml/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Chris

[greenhouse1]

My Oh my! I do believe we are in the company of genius. Grand debate you have going.
Now what was the original question? http://www.**********.com/iBhtml/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Guess we need an area for ethereal quests.

I like the sound of that. :smile:

I will have to sleep on that one and try to slip it by phil.

And greenhouse...the origianl topic I think isn't far off of where we went. It is about putting a patent on a plant and not allowing others to reproduce it without paying a fee. Which I wouldn't do either...but I will just stand on my little soap box and be heard.

[RamPuppy]

I have a headache... try reading this entire movey vs happiness thing all in one sitting...

Nuprin... little... yellow... different...

[robertl]

Wow, what a great discussion on the money aspect. I believe that one should be rewarded for all the effort put in to get the new plant. However, the time frame should be limited as I'm sure that while under protection the plant would be expensive and thus not ava to everyone. After a givin time frame then it's really time to grow and supply will make the plant more affordable.

[nepenthes gracilis]

Well I don't desire it much anymore. But if someone offered it to me I would rake it,I mean who wouldn't? But it is too much friggin around to get the #### plant so I am happy with what I have. The Akai Ryu suits me fine. Sorry for the slang words but I neede to get that off my chest. Ahh... Now I feel much better that all that is said.

[greencrunch]

Does anyone know when the patent on the Royal Red expires? Is it enforcable in the United States? If it expires next year or something then all the people who have it could start stockpiling and flood the market when it expires, driving the price down and scoring a victory for the free access people! Ah, the power of free trade.

If the patent expires...I don't believe that it will be soon...I think that this version was made only a few years ago.

I am sure that people are already doing it. You know like when you would make a tape or CD for a friend?

I don't think that the price is high...but if you want a TRUE one...you would have to get it from Austrailia...that is the problem for some people...they cannot afford the import fees and the high min. order amount ( which leads back to the begining. )

If I could buy a bucnh and resell them here...I would...but I am not willing to part with the AT LEAST 500&#36 order just to make them available on the site...not now...but maybe later!

ALthough I would spend the 500&#36 min order at Borneo's and get some rare Nepenthes that you really can't get over here...to me that is money better spent! :smile:

[RamPuppy]

Here Here! Nepenthes are much cooler plants IMHO.

[Tony Paroubek]

I have almost everything Rob from Borneo has available.. and some that he doesn't! The shipment from Australia just cleared customs and should arrive any day... I did order extra plants of various VFT cultivars. We will see how they came through the packing/shipping. I spose I can ask Geoff about the patent on the RRVFT...
Tony

[noah]

Check out my site <a href="http://www.dionea.homestead.com/mutate.html

I" target="_blank">http://www.dionea.homestead.com/mutate.html

I</a> have four links, two in AU and two in UK.

All of them are overseas so I don't know if this helps...

Noah

P.S. and red dragon and RRVFT are NOT the same thing... Red dragon gets all red sometimes even purplish/brown while royal red stays only red and gets yellow/green trap edges. Also RRVFT is more upright...

But basically in my humble opinion I do think there are a few to many red vft varieties out there. I will be posting pics of some more red varieties on my site soon so you can see the difference... or lack thereof http://www.**********.com/iBhtml/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Mondo]

I don't mean to be mean or anything but just remember there is a &quot;thingie&quot;protecting the rrvft-do u know how busted u'd get if the people here found out?!
LOL anyway all i can say is if u can do it without peeps finding out go for it-i mean after all it is a friggan plant,how can u put copyright(so to say)on it?I really think it's stupid how u can't reproduce it....oh well,but all the best if u manage to get hold of one.
How ironic tony,u're getting a rrvft before me and i'm in australia!!!!!Just shows u how stupid things in this world r...

[nepenthes gracilis]

I hear you Mondo. For gods sake I am more interested in Neps and Sarracenias! I love my Truncata,Red Ventricosa,Merrilliana and my unidentifyed mystery nepenthes. I DO like VFT's but Neps and Sarras. catch my eye most. I don't know why but they do. I am going to wait for the RRVFT to reach America. I rather pay &#365.00 for any kind of VFT. Rather than paying &#36100.00+ on some RRVFT's that might not even survive!!!!!

[greencrunch]

Hi Mondo, if you think that this RRVFT thing means things are stupid in this world you have not seen anything yet. The Austrailian Patent office granted John Keogh of Hawthorn, Victoria a patent on the wheel in 2001! For meny more examples of this kind of stupidity try the Ig Nobel Awards winners list at; www.improb.com/ig/ig-pastwinners

[RamPuppy]

Man... so I should go to Australia, and patent the human lung... then everyone would need to pay me a once cent royalty for every breath they take... http://www.**********.com/iBhtml/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Of course, then someone would sue me for holding the patent on something that put out millions of cubic feet of Carbon Dioxide every day, well over any federally mandated safety regulations... hmmm back to the drawing board...

[nepenthes gracilis]

Yes but plants absorb C02.

[RamPuppy]

:o)

[nepenthes gracilis]

What's that Ram?

[RamPuppy]

smile... you found a counter to it...

[nepenthes gracilis]

Ohh right.