Grey tree frogletts

[Darcie]

Okay, been a little bussy lately to post or read about CPs, but part of my bussyness was in raising 57 (now 56 dew to resent sudden loss of one) tadpoles. *As far as I can tell they are Grey Treefrogs, but I don't know which species. *Anyhow, I figured I'd have a few days from when the frount limb buds appeard to the full legs. *Not so! *Quite literally they poped out on several of my little babies overnight! *http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_k_ani_32.gif Thankfully no one has desided to climb out of their milk jugs yets (I cut them in half and fill to hold the tads), but now I'm in a pickle. *I have to get together a transition enviornment for them asap, but I have no idea how to. *When I was little I raised toads, but toads can't clime.... *Anyone have any recomindations/websites *http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_o_32.gif I can't beleave how fast it happened, do they form under skin and then pop out or what? *Also, they still have their entire tails, how long before they get their lungs and such? *Thanks all.

Edit: No, I'm not keeping all 56, lol. I should mention the goal is to release all healthy frogletts into the wild when they are ready

[Pyro]

Darcie,

There is only one species of grey tree frog. Cope's grey is a totally different species that looks almost identical and the only way to tell a true grey from a Cope's grey is to count chromosomes, not exactly practical for the home hobby herper.

As for your question about the legs, yes the front legs do form in a "pouch" of skin and then pop out.

Best bet for containint the blokes is a terrarium that is half water half earth and fully covered on top. If you can control the temps take a sheet of plexi and cut it to fit the top of the tank drill some small air holes and tape it in place.

Also, FWIW captive raised frogs tend to be stunted in their growth so make sure they are large enought before releasing them back into the wild

[Darcie]

I just noted my topic title is funny... anyhow, yah I just saw Flip (a individual prone to bloat that lives in a drinking glass so I can carefully regulate it's eating) pop one leg out, lol. *I can now see little folds of skin on some of the polliwogs so I am guessing they will have legs in frunt soon too. *I have never heard the 4N differentiated in it's common name, I'll have to remember that since it makes it easier to comunicate. I have however heard that you can tell the two species by their calls, unfortunettly we have both at my house so I have no idea which these belong to, lol!

As to my frogs size... NOT a problem. *Last year I did a bunch of dietary experiments with Triops and discoverd one brand of veggie food that produced incredable growth and longevity http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif I used that with my tadpoles along with some boiled lettiuce to keep them from over eating the rich food and well... they are really big. *I'd say they average 1 inch long snout to vent but some are bigger. *I've seen young greys around here before and they are smaller then mine ;) *I'm actually a little shocked by the whole thing, I think I've only had them about 5 weeks and they went from less then 1cm each to over 3 inches each when you inclued the tail o_O

Thanks for your sugestions, I'll see what I can come up with. *Does anyone know about the whole get lungs and adult digestive tract thing? Flip hasn't eaten since the day before yesterday and this afternoon he poped one leg out. His mouth looks likes he is kissing the air, more so then when he was a tadpole and used the flaps to eat. *Does the presence of an adult mouth corrispond with the air breathing or not? *I though lungs, digestion and frunt legs all happened at once, but that does not seem to be the case because Piggy (a voratious individual that has always been very pail pink and much larger then everyone else) has both it's frount legs and is very frog like (but evil, it has a sharp eye ridge that makes it look demonic, lol), but Piggy has no interest in the top of the water, in fact, all it does is sit at the bottom of the tank er milk jug. *It was still eating day before yesterday, but I haven't seen it smack any others away from the food since. *Still it seems more developed, but stoped eating a shorter time ago, I don't know, it's confusing.

[Pyro]

Yes the call can be used to but it isn't as accurate. The grey (I think) has a slightly faster (key word there is slightly) call. And the fact that the two species can interbreed giving hybrids just adds to the mix of complications. Like I said, chromosome count is best but it is outside the bounds of most herpers.


Quote[/b] ]I have never heard the 4N differentiated in it's common name

Not sure what you are saying here but I think you are indicating you were not aware of the 4n chromosome difference between the two species? ? ?

If that is what you are saying you are a bit mistaken. There is not a 4n difference between the two species. If I remember correctly 9and it has been a big since my frog biology readings) Cope's has half as many chromosomes as the typical grey

As for lungs and digestive tracts. Usually when they get their front legs they start surface gasping because thier lungs are developing, however their gills are still functional as well so they don't always head for the surface. The digestive tract doesn't really change that much but once they get a broad mouth they tend to switch from veggies to meat so you might want to suppliment their food offerings with brine shrimp or blood worms or something like that. Don't panick if they stop eating for a period, usually they do that just before final metamorphos, consuming the stores in their tails and living off that. This enables them to adsorb their tail and not be so clumsy when they finally do hit land.

[Darcie]

No, I new of the 2N and 4N species as seporet by chromosome number, but I only know them by the scientific names, all of my books call both species grey tree frogs ;) Thank you for ansering my mouth question. I had read they stop eating for a few days, but I wasn't expecting them to get frunt legs and THEN stop eating.

[Pyro]

Ah I see, well technically it isn't 2n and 4n. It is that Cope's has 2n=x while Typical has 2n=2x. By saying 4n you are implying that the typical is a polyploid organism which isn't actually the case, each has paired sets of chromosomes.

And I was mistaken on one thing, it is the Cope's that has the slightly faster call

[Darcie]

Well, you'll have to take up the argument with my books. Everything I have says one is a tetraploid of the other. Versicolor is the origenal, I know that much and it has the slower call.

A new question has arrison, I might have an albino or heavilly diluted individual, has anyone seen this in greys before?

[Pyro]

Never heard of an albino grey but there are albino horned frogs so it is possible. What colour are they eyes? That is the give away

[Darcie]

They eyes are silver on the light and copper on the dark. *I don't think I have a true albino, probubly just a super diluted individual. *Unfortunetly since albinos can have pink, blue or silver eyes depending on species it doesn't help me much.

I do have another question. *Three nights ago I returned home from my grandma's bithday to find "Piggy" my largest morph out of the water. *I now call these frogletts my stickies and am up to 4 stickies and 10 pop-n-fresh as I call the new morphs, lol. *Anyhow, I got fruitflies (D. Hydei) for my little stickies (2-3cm long each), but they are not eating http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_h_32.gif Do they have to totally absorb their tails to start eating because my oldest is now 99% tailess, but I haven't seen it eat yet, although I can only find 9 of the 10 flies I put in the terrarium. *And when they do start eating, how often should they be eating and how much. *I am probubly just being paranoid, but I want to make sure they are doing okay. *Thanks http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif

Edit: Okay my earlier post saying versicolor was origenal is apparently wronge. I guess they desided to give the name to the tetraploid for some weird reason violating modern nomenclature rules. Ah, the joy of taxonomy.

[Pyro]

A true albino has pink/red eyes anything else is a leucistic (defined as : "an aberration of genetic origin, typically of faded or washed-out colouration; not to be confused with albinism.") From the sound of it though you probably just have a pale morph.

Froglettes can last upto a month on the stores from their tails but I would not recommend forcing them to that extreme.

If the flies are disappearing then they are probably eating them, they are nocturnal remember so they are probably doing all their eating at night while you sleep.

I am still out on the typical form being a tetraploid. According to all literature a tetraploid is still the same species as the original parent (i.e. a tetraploid D. rotundifolia is still D. rotundifolia.) So since Typical and Cope's are classified as different species that to me would mean that one is not a tetraploid of the other.

[The Griffin]

Nice topic.
Grey treefrogs are Hyla versicolor, BTW. At least last time I knew. I found out they re-did the naming of some snakes and cornsnakes are no longer Elaphe(I can understand this as people have crossed them with kingsnakes, milksnakes and pinesnakes).
There are albino green treefrogs, so I don't see why a grey would not arise. Keep in mind, almost everything produces occasional albinos, but it's not best for them, as they sit out like a sore thumb and usually get killed wuickly in Nature. Leucistic(sp?) is a white form, with normal eyes. If this one is so light that is would stick out, you may want to keep it as a pet, as it may be doomed in the wild.
A half water/half land detup would be good for some of these, with small insect food available(maybe fruit flies if the froglets are small enough).

Cheers,

Joe

[Pyro]

Joe,

I was not denying the existance of an albino, I was only stating that I don't think she had an albino.

And as for albinos sticking out like sore thumbs and getting picked off easily all I have to say is that the albino chipmonk in my neighborhood is luck he is an albino or else I probably would have not seen him in my head lights and run him over LOL

[The Griffin]

Sorry how that may have sounded. You are right about it not sounding like an albino. I was just pondering about them while on the subject. Big bucks for albino critters, if you can breed them. For me it gets tireing-if I want a corn snake, it's because of it's beautiful coloration. Why would you covet it if it's albino?

Joe

[Pyro]

Well I rather like my albino corn with his creamsicle orange, neon yellow and vibrant vermillion colouration http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif I'll see if I can get a pic up some day

It is the snowballs/blizzards that boggle me, they look like overgrown overcooked living spagetti

I had an albino horned frog to but that was pointless as they spend their lived burried so what is the point?!?

[The Griffin]

I have a pixie frog. He stays buried in the substrate until food is running around. He is just a little one, but he is already wider than he is long. Do horned frogs tend to bite, or are they cool for the most part?

Joe

[Pyro]

Depends on the frog really. My C. ornata was quite mellow and took guppies and goldfish from my fingers when he was small. The albino C. cranwelli was pill and always went for my fingers instead of the guppies. When I moved to mice the ornata was so conditioned to hand feeding that I had to continue the habit, the cranwelli would explode from the earth and take the live mouse before I even got it half way into the cage. Luck of the draw I guess, one good and one bad

[Darcie]

Albino eyes are blueish or silverish because the structure of the eye refracts light like a crystal, just like albino birds that have green gloss or your snakes with yellow patterns from scail modification, or anoals that are bright blue and stuff, but yah, I think I just have a diluted one. Okay, so they have had 2 fruit flies vanish... a month on one tail? Mine don't even HAVE tails at this point, it only takes them like 48 hours after leaving the water to loose them.

I have been giving them fruitflies wich are about the size of the frogletts eyeballs, is that about right? I did have 10 live in with my 3 oldest, but they all died o_O I added one remaining from my vial and got an aphid coverd plant, some leaf hoppers about the size of the fruitflies and two katydids twice the size of the fruitflies. What would help stimulate their eating? Are my sizes about right? Thanks http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif

P.S. I have 13 frogletts at this point, yay!

[Spectabilis73]

Sounds like oyu are off to a good start. It is important that they are not without food at ALL times for 8 weeks. NEVER let them run out of food. This seems to be crucial when raising froglets, and they do much better and get a better start when doing this.

Flies the size of the eyeball sounds right. I would also try springtails, and maybe to find some snail eggs and hatch and feed the baby snails to them http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif

[Nflytrap]

baby sowbugs work well. Just catch either a large female or look around carefully amongst adults.

[Darcie]

Okay, thanks http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif *AT the moment my frogs are in terrariums with white wet pater towl on the bottom, a lump of papertowle to hide in and sit on in the middle and a plant growing out of a plastic baggie, specifically lamb's quarters. *Is this a good way to go or should I try and sterilise some dirt for them? *Do I need more plants, color? *I just added a cap of fruit fly larva and goo with another cap with a hole in it on top so they have a little fruit fly fountain and the wandering fruitfly larva stages boop about the terrarium. *Is that good? *Should I have more plants, rocks dirt, sticks? *I want them to stay highgenic, but with 3 of them only eating 2 fruit flies in 4 days I get worried.

Edit: *Springtails are rare around here and most of our native snails are endangerd so I can't risk feeding them so I'll be trying for some isopods (sow bugs)... are aphids too small then and all of mine seem to have vanished, but weather it was into the frogs or not I do not know.

[Pyro]

Quote[/b] (Darcie @ June 30 2004,9:35)]Albino eyes are blueish or silverish because the structure of the eye refracts light like a crystal, just like albino birds that have green gloss or your snakes with yellow patterns from scail modification, or anoals that are bright blue and stuff
No, Darcie, albino eyes are red/pink because there is no pigment in them. The blue/silver eyes indicates a lack of dark pigment, hence the reason babies have blue eyes their pigment cells are not functional until some time after birth, this is the same reason babies don't have freckles. The default pigment for eyes is blue/silver, the structure of the eye has nothing to do with it. The reason my snake has yellow and orange is because there are multiple pigment processes in snakes (and many other organisms.) He lacks the dark pigments that normally make corn snakes grey, black, brown, etc with dark eyes but he still has the yellow/orange pigments. There are reciprical mutants that lack the yellow/orange pigmants but still retain the grey, black, brown.


Back to your frogs. When I said they could live for a month off their tails I did not mean that the tail would stick around that long. I meant that the energy the derive from adsorbing their tails can sustain them for a month. Kind of like the hump on a camel.

Now for the housing of the beasties. I have always been a naturalist with my pets and believe that captive animals do better when they are in someplace that mimics the wild. I would suggest a total overhaul on your set up. Here is what I would do:

Take a ten gallon tank and get a piece of plexi-glass cut to fit the top. Now measure it along the long axis, mark the half way point and then cut. Tape the pieces back together creating a hinge (duct tape is best for this but it is rather ugly.) Now tape the taped together plexi and set it on the top of the tank and tape the remaining three sides of one half to the tank with clear packing tape. You now havea top that hinges open. Now take the tank and stand it on end and you have a hinged front plate that swings down from the top.

For the next step, take some silicon caulk (you can buy it at a pet store) and use it to glue some plastic aquarium plants to the celing of the tank. I prefer to use natural coloured ones, again for the realism aspect. Because gravity will be woring against you I suggest that you flip the tank 180 so that the top is now the bottom. You will have to wait for the caulk to dry 24 hours before moving on.

After the caulk is dry flip the tank back up and place a couple inches of moist fine coir or peat in the bottom. Add some rocks and bark and leaves for decoration/hiding places and maybe a small dish of water. Now toss your froglettes in and some food stuff for them and use a piece of dogeared tape to hold the top in place.

The reason I like this kind of set up is because it gives the frogs what they want. Grey's (like all treefrogs) are arborial and like to have a lot of vertical distance to move around. The plants hanging fromthe celing will give them something to climb on and hang from and hide in and hunt in. And if they really wnat to hang out on the bottom of the tank there are places to hind there too. You have easy access to the tank through the top hinged segment and if you rotate the tank 90 it hides that part from view (if you are really offended by the tape everywhere.) I like to mist every couple days to keep humidity high.

[Darcie]

Yah, that is how I would do an adult tank, I like the idea of attaching the plants at the top I haven't seen that, but for the babies this seems okay, I think I will add more plants... grey tree frogs are not as into living up high as other tree frogs, that is to say they live in shrubs and stuff, mine actually hang out around mid level of the tanks the most often.

I see what your getting at. *I think my definition is more narrow then yours. *Although, Albinoism is specfically a gene that sits on the production of melanin, so other color influencing protiens and crystal deposists are not affected. *However, you should know that human eyes ARE blueish silver in true human albinos because of the chrystalin structure of the protiens. *This structure masks the blood vessles and causes the eyes to look a hauntingly light silver blue. *We studied this specifically in my genetics class and I personally know 4 true human albinos and all 4 have those silver grey-blue eyes. *Blue is not a true pigment so that is why a hint of it shows threw. *Darker blue eyes come from the combo of diluted pigments in combo with the structural elements. *Felines also share this blueish look to their eyes when albino.

Edit: *When you were talking about bedding you ment the cork bark stuff they sell for herps right?

I'm having trouble finding insects to feed my frogs, does anyone have any sugested places to look for them. *It seems their are plenty of big preditory critters about, but even leaf hoppers are scarce right now :P

[Pyro]

An albino has pigment cells but lacks pigment in the cells. There are pigmant cells in the eye and for they eye to be blue there has to be pigment in the cell. Like I said it is a default colour. If someone looks albino yet has blue eyes they are not then albino by definition because their pigment cells contain some pigment.

The phenotype you describe where the eyes are blue or pale grey is called leucopathy or hypopigmentation. The organism still has pigment in its pigment cells it is just that the pigment is either blocked in its processing cascade or produced at too low a level to cause colouration of the organism.

An excellen example of this is the white alligators at the Audubon Zoo pictured here (http://www.xdcr.com/two.html) they in fact are not, as most people assume, albinos, because their eyes are brilliantly blue.

There are however true albino alligators like this guy here (http://www.reptilegardens.com/reptile/herpgallery/photo12.html). Note that his eye is pink.

The only physical difference between the two is their eye colour. Genetically they are totally distinct creatures and only the latter can be classified as albino


And back to the frogs again. Your best bet for getting them food stuff is to flip up a rock and just dig up all the small things that you find there. Toss them in and let the frogs go to work.

[Spectabilis73]

managed to scrounge up some info on the 'net

Gray treefrogs catch insects and other invertebrates for food. They are quite acrobatic catching flying insects in mid air. They hang around street lamps or other lights at night. They are commonly seen on windows and sides of cabins or rural homes at night. They remain hidden in little crevices or other loose shelters during the day.

[Darcie]

I don't know, it seems like we have had this debate before. What you say goes againced everything I've ever been taught, but that doesn't mean what I've been taught is correct. I'll make a note to sit down and study the subject a bit more to see if I can find data supporting eather clame, and bug my albino freinds.

[Darcie]

Thank you for the data Spec http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I did not know that, though it explains why they head twords the light in the evening and at dawn http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif Unfortunetly http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_h_32.gif all our local rocks seem baren of life o_O I think everything have been sucked into a black hole or something. I spent 4 hours trying to find insects the proper size today with little luck :P I'm now headed out again into the dusk buggy air.


....Just thinking, albino horses and leucopathic horses are both recognised colors, but both have blue eyes, anyone know the difference?

[Darcie]

And once again the pickings are scarce :P *Nothing under the rocks, 5 million oversized earwigs under a peice of bark and a wood roach under a board. *Thankfully the roach was housemates with 5 sow bugs, but all are too big. *I put them in with the frogs anyhow and gave them a peice of potato. *I think maybe it is the lack or rain the last week that is the problem. *I set out a big board in my garden and a white towel on a bush so maybe I'll luck out and have some things in the morning.

If not... http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_h_32.gif I'm going to have to go buy another vial of fruit flies :P why the adults all dropped dead is beyond me, but the larvea just begain to pupate so it will be two or three days before they become adults :P

[Pyro]

Darcie,

If you are buying fruit flies then why not just toss half into a well sealed container with some over ripe bananas and let the buggers breed? That way you will have a whole ton of them.

As for your missing bugs, try digging a couple inches down into the dirt under a rock, usually that scares things up. And look near places that have some kind of perpetual water source, like under a hose faucet or near a pool.

[Darcie]

Ah yes, that is a good thought (about the water). http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif I AM breeding fruit flies, but my entire collection is imature right now so I have no adults to feed my frogs at this vary moment.

...Regarding keeping my own fruit fly culture, is banana really the best choice? It seems like it would be short lived. At school we used a special blue mix to grow our flies, but I haven't seen it for sale. Does anyone with lots of fruit fly culture experience (AKA those with dart frogs) have any home made sugestions (Pyro, if your in this catagory please excuse my ignorance and I'll do the banana, it just seems to ovious, lol)

...About the rocks... digging in a dry season is brilliant... except I failed to mention something. Our lack of under rock critters is in part from them being hidden and in part because every rock I flip over is home to one of 2 things, both of which do not do well with visitors. The first is spiders, These tubby little black and yellow fuzzy fellows dig tunnles all over the place just under the rock and fill them with web. The remains of any creature unfortunet enough to use THAT rock as shelter are everyware. If I dig under these rocks, as I have been tempted, I'll destroy the spiders home and potentially hurt it, I just feel bad doing that... and I had one bite me rather badly once when I desturbed it and would not like a repeat ;) The second critter I run into are ants, lots and lots of ants who rather agressively defent their home. Not one trace of other life is around these stones.

My third problem is sand, we have a lot here and any stone in sand is just void of life compleatly... Now, I just rememberd that we have a rock circle out in the pasture, I think I will look their in a minute, in the meantime I have some more updates on my situation and of course, questions http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Okay, so last night I put out a board and a white towlle. The towel has NOTHING on it, that has to be a first for this trap :P ah well, my naboors real pool and my kiddy pool of extra tadpoles must be better attractents. The board(is that the proper spelling?) I'll flip mid day when things should have taken shelter. I also just put out a new trap, desperation really, it's an ant trap (peice of cheese in a cup on it's side in my garden). Ants are the one thing I have lots of and the little black ones are not proticularly aggressive. Now for the question. Are ants an okay food sorce for my frogs?! I know how tricky ants are and that only some things eat them, but I have no clue as to how frogs do. Thanks for your help again everyone, and especially to Pyro for sticking with me threw all my confution, lol.

Oh and one last thing, the behaviors Spec mentioned are really coming into light http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif It seems during the day everyone in my new large terrarium (a large globe from PFT with cheese cloth and plastic wrap on top) clime to the tippy top in the day and wedge into a little ridge around the lid. It's like a ledge and they just love it their. They spend all night up their too, but at dawn they drop down and start hopping all over. Infact, they are still at it this morning and they run, literally run up and down hop and flip to the other side, they are so cute and wacky http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif My 3 older ones prefer to just sit mid level or on the plant in their little aquarium during the afternoon and at night, but during the morning they actually hang out on the bottom of the tank... I think if I keep any I will make a ledge around the top for them to mash into during the day since they seem to like that so much. I think it's that hiding in creveces thing... Oh and my youngest ones fresh from the water, they hid in the folds of the paper towle, hang mid way on the glass or perch on the rimb of the water jug http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif Sorry, I just wake up every day and want to squeal with happyness when I see my little babies growing up. I have over 20 morphs now, I haven't an exact count just yet, but I'd guess 25 are out of the water, last night I had 19 out, and lots more came out this morning.

[Pyro]

Darcie,

Funnel web spiders are indeed a pain and will eat anything near them so digging around them will be fruitless.

I would avoid ants as a food source, even small numbers can swarm little critters and frogs, as I am sure you well know, have very sensitive skin so a few nips could cause problems.

For the fruit flies, no I am not a dart frog person, never really had the time for their care. However, fruit flies are a model genetic system and the microbial genetics department is liken with the eukaryotic genetics department so I know a bunch of people who work with fruit flies in their labs. There are "special" foods for them but most labs actually find it more cost effective to mash up banana with fish flakes and then supliment that with some other fruits like a little bit of apple or pear or mellon or something. Considering the number of rogue fruit flies on campus I would say that the stuff works pretty good. And you I would like to point out that the reason fruit flies became a model system is because they were easy to find back in the old old days of science. Guys would just go down to the docks where the banana shipments came in and net a whole hoard of flies then scoop up some of the rotten bananas that were left from the shipment and head back to the lab.

I have another idea for you. They are called deadfall traps. Take a glass jar (any size will do) and dig a hole and drop the jar into it. Back fill the hole so that the top of the jar is just at soil level. If you want you can drop something in as bait but it is not necassary. To have any kind of productive haul you will need to do a good number of these but if you check them every morning you will probably end up with a variety of stuff in the course of a week or so.

[Darcie]

Yah ;) *I use to keep pitfalls all the time for fun when I was little. *Fruit and stuff does work, but it's a pain to work with, I was hoping for a less nasty methiod... maybe I can grow yeast in potato flakes? *If I don't have anything under my board I'll slip the cup down their. *Thanks again http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif

Edit: Good news, I was looking in the older froglet cage and realised they had eaten one of the katydid nimphs I had put in so I went up a little on the food size and got a bunch of little grasshoppers, full grown leaf hoppers and crickets http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif some look to be a bit to large, but I'm hoping the smaller ones I got will get eaten http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif

[Finch]

perhaps not all species produce albinos.

Take the zebra finch. (my birds are zebra finches)

They have been bred in captivity in the millions for countless (of their) gernerations. There is a great variety of forms and shapes, but no albino has ever been produced, or seen. Every other animal that has been bred on that vast of scale has produced albinos somewhere along the line, but not zebra finches, for some odd reason. Why? are they simply incapeable, or is it just much more infrequetly then other species? There is no natural selection in captivity normally, so they can have been preyed upon. Its one of the great misterys of aviculture.

[Darcie]

The mutation just hasn't occurred in them, that's all http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif

[Pyro]

Finch,

In some species the albinism gene is actually a lethal mutation. My guess would be that the allele for albinism exists in your birds but that is probably lethal

[Pyro]

Darcie,

I did some searching on the albino horse thing and best I can tell there are albino horses but most of the ones called albinos and in fact not.


Quote[/b] ]... Eventually the books were opened to horses of like color, but not necessarily of Old King breeding. Thus, the American Albino Horse Breed became a color breed in the full sense of the word. Both draft breeds and pony breeds were to be included under their own type. To qualify a horse had to have a true white coat (no ivory cast to the coloring), pink skin and dk. brown, black, hazel or blue eyes. Equine genetic experts claim that horses have never been known to throw pinkeye foals. Therefore, all eye colors are now accepted.

Long and short here is that the horses were just called albinos because they were white and no one bothered to account for eye colour.


Quote[/b] ]World Wide Horse Registry in the early 70's... At this time the horse known formerly an American Albino became the American White Horse.

Just a transitoin point here.


Quote[/b] ]The American White, regardless of breeding, must have pink skin and truly white coloring ... no slight pigmentation of hair allowed. A few, small scattered spots are permissible (Usually found around eye, chest, and on genital areas, but only on skin, not on hair, these spots frequently are not exhibited until the foal approaches 18 months in age.). The various eye colors common to horses are acceptable including amber and very pale blue and parti-colored.

The American White will reproduce 50% white when bred to colored stock. It will sometimes have a colored foal, however, when bred to a white mate. The Whites do not dilute color as do the Cremes with exception being when a White has a Creme ancestor and thus carries a creme gene. High rates of white have been obtained when sire and dam both trace from long lineage of white ancestors. We have one mare who, having been bred to a chestnut stallion, produced six out of seven foals white, far above the expected 50% level.


Here is the meat of the argument against these horses being albinos: they breed as heterozygous dominant which is not possible in albinos. The albino allele is a homzygous recessive trait (i.e. you must have 2 copies of the gene to be albino. If you have only one allele it is doubtful you will know because you will have normal pigmentation.) Basic Mendelian genetics then tells you that anytime you cross an albino to an albino you have all albino offspring and any time you cross an albino to a non-albino you have all non-albino offspring. The only cavet here is if your non-albino is a carrier then you get a 50% chance of albino offspring. The ratios above totally argue against any possibility of these horses being true albinos.

I have found a little info that indicates there are pink-eyed horses (despite what the top quote says) but I have not found enough to get an idea on the genetic profile of them. I would bet that they are true albinos though.

[Darcie]

Thanks pyro, I'm guessing the problem is that Albino is a more general term in some circles and used to refer to any gene that sits on melinin production, normally we think of this as a ressesive gene, but with the broader definition it could also be dominent. I do however think you are probubly 100% correct on the fintches, I totally forgot about the leathal factor ;) I will make a note to ask my prof. at school about the technicalities of the term and such, I'm sure she will know where the confusion lies ;) However, following your definition of albino, it means humans don't come in true albino, which would make sence since 'albino' in some races seems to still show some coloring (I've always been bugged by that)

IN OTHER NEWS...

http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif rejoice for I have found a suplimental food sorce for my frogs. ;) I now gather rather icky gnat-like flies from the horse piles by waving a paper bag accross the top, sealing it shut with a twist tie, into the fridge for 30 seconds and dump the knocked out little things in with the frogs http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I can not begin to describe how much these things EAT! 50 fruitflies went poof overnight so I am really glad I have this other food source.

The frogletts have become great hunters and I can now watch them ketch prey, one got 10 gnats in like 5 minutes doing backflips and what not. I am guessing they eat close to 30 gnats each right now o_O good thing my horses are up to the difficult task of attracting gnats, lol!

Last night my first batch of froggies were released. I miss them and worry for their health...lol, one would think with over 50 frogs I wouldn't miss 4, but such is life. I've set a size requirment of the first joint of my finger of release, everyone is growing so fast it won't be long before the next batch, although my 3 runts may be with me for a bit.

IN OTHER NEWS

My cousins found a washed out reptile nest and I have adopted the 4 eggs within. I think they are blue racer or black rat snake eggs, but they could be turtle. They all get the same care so it's okay http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif

[Pyro]

Quote[/b] (Darcie @ July 07 2004,9:46)]However, following your definition of albino, it means humans don't come in true albino, which would make sence since 'albino' in some races seems to still show some coloring (I've always been bugged by that)
No, following my definition there are true human albinos. They have total lack of pigmentation and breed according to the genetics of the allele. But like the other white phase animals that are called albinos when they are not there are white phase humans that get called albinos when they are not. Even by doctors. The only true test is to tag the gene and that is usually a bit too expensive for most people to do mearly for the sake of absolute certainty.

[Darcie]

AH okay them http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif