Any construction sites

[Kirkscoastalcarnivores]

Hye everyone, as some people here know I am going bogging this summer in July throughout the SE United States, I am mainly going for the experience, but if there are any constructions sites, where plants are in danger of getting destroyed I can rescue mos tof them and distribute them here. If any of you are aware of sights that are out of reach for anyone I would g;adly save them and distribute them here for s+h 3.85 I am not sure if this is allowed or not, so if a mod finds this innapropriate please notify me and close the thread, Even if I dont get any responses, who knows I still might run acrooss a construction sight and find some plants to distribute, keep your eye out, the plants' habitats that I am visiting are:
S. flava
S. leucophylla
S. alata
S. purpurea
S. minor
S. psittacina
keep your eyes out!

[unknownclown]

sounds like a wonderful poaching expedition please tell me that this is not the case! Also please remember that just because you see them next to the road or where ever else and not in a protected bog area that it DOES NOT mean that they are free for grabs to "save"

I hope after this post that the members here are weary of giving any locations. It sounds like you are already offeriing the plants listed away for the postage.
http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/confused.gif http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/confused.gif

[nepenthes gracilis]

Leave them for a responsible, more expierenced person in this field. I don't think a bunch of construction people or landowners would believe a 13 year old kid either.

Just bring a camera.

[Bugweed]

Agreed!

[Kirkscoastalcarnivores]

whatever, I guess if I see a stand of sarracenia about to be blown over by bulldozers I'll jsut leave them, just thought that I would try to see if there were any plants in need but fine after hearing all the alata stands that were in danger, thought there might be something in need of saving, If you guys really want me to leave plants that might be in need of help alone, sure I'll just look.

[Bugweed]

Kirk, If you can't understand the concerns of the people trying to give you advice here, you don't belong in the field, period. Our concerns are valid, and concern the well being of the plant. You are 13. I am afraid I would not trust the judgement of a 13 year old kid in regards to what constitutes "saving" a plant in the field. If that hurts your feelings, then I know for sure you don't belong there. You don't have to like the advice given, but you had better take the time to understand it. A bad reputation in the CP field, NEVER goes away! And you don't want one!

[schloaty]

Kirk, Bugweed is right.

While your dedication is admirable, you have to remember to temper you enthusiasm with wisdom. *It's not a simple matter of, "Let's go save 'em!" *You have to deal with people, many of whom will NOT listen to you because of your age. *I know it's not fair, but that's life....And you WILL age (most of us are now denying how old we are, lol). *You need some adults on your side to lend credence to your mission. *Rescues should be done by an orginazation. *It makes it look more credible.

Unfortunately, the NASC has to do more that rescue/propagate plants. We have to sway public oppinion. That means we have to keep up official appearances.

[Kirkscoastalcarnivores]

I'm not upset that you guys don't trust me, it's more that you are accusing me of trying to poach


Quote[/b] ]This sounds like a wonderfull poaching expidition, please tell me this is not the case!

[LauraZ5]

Kirk, let's dissect what you wrote-

"if there are any constructions sites, where plants are in danger of getting destroyed I can rescue mos tof them and distribute them here".

It would appear you had no intentions of keeping any plant material personally and it would also appear you had no intentions of removing plant material from any site other than that which you believed to be in eminent danger of destruction. Regardless of whether your heart was in the right place, there are tricks to the trade. I monitor rare plants. *Before I was allowed to do so, I had to attend two whole day training sessions and then I had to be "monitored" by seasoned veterans. I am still monitored by seasoned veterans and you know something, I not only enjoy the company but the opportunity for growth by being able to discuss the sites with a person who has forgotten more than I will ever know. *I also go on plant rescues. *They are organized by somebody else so all I do is show up. This means that somebody already procured written permission to be at the site. We always work in small groups to be able to bear witness. We also photograph the area before we begin to work and then we photograph it upon completion. There are many ins and outs to plant rescue and working alongside a seasoned veteran for a few years is the best experience imaginable. All said and done, even those who wish to view rareand/or desirable plants may damage their habitat by trampling. *In order to preserve our rarest and most desirable species of carnivorous plants and their habitats, we need to start out slow and work with those who have forgotten more than people such as you and me know. You know something Kirk, I have yet to visit any site by myself whether it be endangered and threatened native plants or CPs. *I am pushing 50 years of age.

Perhaps it would be best if you stated where you will be vacationing and ask if anyone is working on any projects in that area. *Then maybe you could volunteer your "sweat labor". *If you are visiting the Midwest, let me know as I surely would love to have you visit the school where I volunteer. The Junior High kids there would love getting a chance to bombard you with questions. *

"If any of you are aware of sights that are out of reach for anyone I would g;adly save them and distribute them here for s+h 3.85"

This was an incredibly kind offer. *One problem is that in order to preserve our rarest and most desirable species of carnivorous plants and their habitats, it is paramount that the confidentiality of their locations is maintained unless an individual is actively involved "working" that site. This is nothing personal Kirk. I am a member of Plants Of Concern. I have knowledge of only those sites with which I am actively involved. If the truth be known, I could probably get access to information regarding other sites but I really have no need to know therefore I have never asked. *

"I am not sure if this is allowed or not"

Well, I suppose you most unfortunately got your answer.

"if a mod finds this inappropriate please notify me and close the thread"

I am not a mod, just a member like you. I personally do not find what you originally wrote to be inappropriate as I doubt seriously if your intentions were to go field collecting to distribute plants to your fellow members here. *I do find what you wrote to be poorly worded though but let he who is guilt free of poor wording cast the first stone.

Now this statement does sort of concern me, "I guess if I see a stand of sarracenia about to be blown over by bulldozers I'll jsut leave them". *It doesn't have to be this way Kirk. You'll have Internet access when you are vacationing. *Please rethink that statement. Perhaps you could see fit to share any findings with 0zzy should you come across any. *That's the way it works. *There is a chain of command and he is the head of Conservancy for the NASC. I understand you are frustrated but please try to understand that most of the people here are die hard conservationists and they've all seen what a poached site looks like because somebody didn't exercise discretion when sharing site data. Whether the disclosure of a site was intentional or not, the loss of plants is always irreversible. It's nothing personal.

[Treaqum]

Kirk normally some will go through the blueprints (if written up) to see how much of the site will be disturbed. I know of a couple sites where only part of the bog was destroyed so only part had to be saved. Other sites are totalled but its hard to tell unless you talk with the head of construction or see the blueprints. A lot of research has to go into finding sites and makeing sure they can be saved. Since you will need permission. Some owners don't wnat you messing around. And I'm sure your parents don't want you arrested. There is also a proper procedure for removing plants. This is usually followed even if the person has not a real clue about what they are doing. There is also a proper procedure for distribution that must be attempted to followed. And if you follow all the procedures you would only end up with a few boxes to send out. You also must need to know who to send the boxes to first. Obviously people like Bugweed who has been in Cping for 43 years knows that he should popagate and distribute the palnts as widely as possible. Some newbe will probibly kill at least one adn not know how to propagate it nor will they distribute it as widely as possible. After years and years of Cping many of these guys and gals know what to do and how to do it which is vitally important. The Cp rescue at Crestview that happened last year or the year before resulted in the saving of 140 S. rubra ssp. gulfensis, 5 S. leucos, and some P. primulifolia and maybe a coupe other things (I don't remember exactly). Now out of those plants probibly 1 out of 10 dies because of pests, disease or just plain shock. no one could do anything about any of those because they just could not be avoided. So now we are down to around 125 plants which survived. I know people who got those plants and I know they are pollinating the flowers and waiting for the plants to grow enough to divide so that they can be distributed to the rest of the community. 125 plants is not a whole lot. I have been to the Crestview site a few months ago and in other areas of the same land hundreds possibly thousands of plants thrive. Yet we have no idea if the rest will be developed yet. If it is we probibly will not know about it. So only 125 plants out of a few hundred survived and are genetically distinct. If all 125 were sent to newbes do you think all 125 would have survived? No. They might have also been sent out wrong and so there would be no way second generation plants could be labelled 'Crestview, Fl'. I am proud to say that I for one will be donating all my seed from these plants to the ICPS seedbank as soon as they mature. I know others will also. This will allow the people who did not get the original plants to have some of their own labelled 'Crestview, Fl'. Now this story has a purpose. The purpose is to show that with out long hours of work on the rescuers part plants could have been mistakenly taken from teh part of Crestview that was not threatened. That would have obviously been pouching but since such research and effort went into this our Carnivorus Plant Community can proudly say we saw a need and did something about it. Instead of shrinking back and saying yeah someone poached. Without these well thoughtout, organized rescues how do you think so many location plants were offered on the NASC auctions. Without the rules and regulations probibly very few of those plants would be avalible.

Sorry for the long post everyone

[Kirkscoastalcarnivores]

Laura and Tre, very well thought out posts, and I do rethink my post before, I would just like the people to know, I invited several other cp'ers as well that sadly wouldn't have been able to come, Tre if you are planning on being in the panhandle this July please feel free to come with me

[Treaqum]

Sorry I will not be there. Possibly in California or France. If in California I will try to tiem myself for a BACPS meeting.

[Ozzy]

Kirk, I have been watching your posts about this trip very carefully. I have even discussed it with other members. We all agree that at this time it's best to keep any sites to ourselves. It's nothing personal. I believe that you should earn respect and trust from more advanced cp'ers before you are given any location data. You have plenty of time to earn your way in. I have been around this hobby for awhile, I have done a lot of work to save cp's and cp sites. Even with all of that there are people that won't tell me cp sites that they know about. I'm not hurt by that, it just makes me feel that they are doing their part to keep the sites safe. If they don't trust me to show me the sites, then I will continue to work hard to earn their trust. One day I'll have their trust.
There are cp sites that I have found and as far as I know I'm the only person that knows where they are. I have spent hours looking for sites on my own, and I have some wonderful finds. A lot of time and labor when into finding them. I enjoy going back to them and seeing them and knowing that they are safe. I know that anytime I want to see them I can. I would be devistated if I went there on day and found a bunch of holes where plants use to be. Keeping these plants to myself is not selfish. I would love to show them to somebody that I trust.
One thing you said really worries me.

Quote[/b] ]I invited several other cp'ers as well that sadly wouldn't have been able to come
This would be another reason whyI wouldn't give you any sites that I know. I don't know who you would show the sites to. Even if I completely trusted you, I still can't trust the people that you take with you.
If you want to change your trip to NC, I will be happy to give you some very nice sites to visit. If I am there when you get there I'll even show you around.

[Kirkscoastalcarnivores]

sounds good ozz, I am able to respect that, I only invited cp'ers who have already been in a bog, I invited Brooks, and Bugweed, we all know they would never poach if their lives depended on it, I dont know if I'll be in NC, but if I find any nice sites in florida that are unknown, I guess I would want to only give the data to cp'ers I really trusted

[LauraZ5]

Well 0zzy, if Brooks and Bugweed are two of his picks... *Kirk's got impeccable taste in CPers now doesn't he! *Guess you and I are ummm, chopped liver!

[Ozzy]

Yeah, Nobody ever picks me to go. I guess nobody likes me.

[LauraZ5]

I'll pick you 0zzy. Us chopped livers need to stick together. *

If you come by me, I'll give you the directions to Volo Bog and you and my husband can go together because he's never been there before. *While you two are off bogging, me and your wife can go shopping at Gurnee Mills. Women can do considerable damage at Gurnee Mills. *

No worry about kids for our trips as Bugs offered to abuse mine for a day in another thread so so we can just dump them on him.

[Ozzy]

NOOOO, There is no way I'm letting my credit cards go to the mall with you and my wife. I wouldn't even be able to buy gas to get back home.

[LauraZ5]

Spoil Sport

[Kirkscoastalcarnivores]

I would've invited you guys, I just didn't think you could make it

[SarraceniaScott]

Quote[/b] (Kirkscoastalcarnivores @ May 29 2005,12:05)]I'm not upset that you guys don't trust me, it's more that you are accusing me of trying to poach


Quote[/b] ]This sounds like a wonderfull poaching expidition, please tell me this is not the case!
Kirk, I am certain your intentions are noble, and there is a great deal you can do to help in CP conservation, if you are careful about it.

I would say that the best thing you could do if you discover a CP site that appears to be endangered is to alert the forum of it.

If somebody with more field experience is able to determine whether the site IS truly in danger, and can get the owners' permission and make the expedition to salvage some plants, I expect they would let you know, so you can join them and assist in the rescue.

I am 35, and I would not dream of doing such a thing purely on my own.

Unless somebody more experienced advises otherwise, I would not recommend you approach the construction crew or owners. *If it is approached the wrong way the first time, they may be very disinclined to allow us to rescue plants in the future. *Just write down the address/location, take some pictures, and send the info on here.

[Ozzy]

That is some very good advice Scott.

[Treaqum]

Yes you never know what will set them off. *It's always a gamble. *As long as you are nice they are usually okay but if other people have asked they may be p***** off

[LauraZ5]

Quote[/b] ]Yes you never know what will set them off. *It's always a gamble.
Wow Tre, sounds as if you have some experience here. Yes, wives deprived of access to their husband's credit cards can get rather grumpy.

Oh, was that not what you were referring to? Seriously, I believe we should all leave initiation of contact regarding any site to people in positions of authority at the NASC. *Naturally, no one can stop anyone from initiating contact on their own however I would hope that one would not be tossing out any affiliation as a volunteer with the NASC as a form of "credentials" to better their odds of gaining access to a site. *The NASC, although not up and fully functional yet, has people who are well qualified to take appropriate action if contacted and provided with the opportunity to do so on behalf of the NASC.

[Treaqum]

Sorry Laura that was not the context I was looking for. Most of my post got deleted by mistake. Ah well I was talking about construction site owners. Although I guess you read the subtext.

[SarraceniaScott]

Kirk's question has me thinking...

We really should try to set up a network of experienced volunteers who can act on information to determine whether plants are really threatened and work with the owners/developers to allow people to rescue the plants (and do so in a manner so that ONLY those plants threatened are taken).

This way, Kirk and others, would have a means to alert the right people, and know that appropriate action is taken. Somewhere along the line, the initial reporter should be brought into the loop, and, I hope, be allowed to assist in the actual rescue; s/he's not going to learn otherwise what the right way to do this is.

[LauraZ5]

Good News, 0zzy is the head of Conservancy for the NASC. *I think the Committee Chairs were somewhat sidetracked for a few weeks with the auction however your very suggestion has already been on the table and just such a network was already proposed which would include the original reporter of the site. Details forthcoming in the months to follow however I believe 0zzy is the member to contact regarding coordination of any "rescues".

[Treaqum]

Laura I'm not exactly sure how many people actually remember what the NASC stands for. I know I have enough problems with all the other Actronimes (sp?). You know all those. Actually I think I have most down just those long latin names like Utricularia chiribiquetensis or Utric. quinquedentatai I don't even think I could pronounce those if some one told me a dozen times (feel free to spell those out in phenetics for me though).

[Ozzy]

We (NASC) are working on setting up a network so that anybody can contact one of us and we will get the ball rolling. We have even discussed a plan that will allow a member of the NASC to have permissions and legal rights to rescue plants within hours or even minutes. Of course that will be for emergency situations only. Here is a combination of a plan I would like to set up and what has already been discussed.

Our first priority is to keep as many plants on the original sites as possible. Removal of plants will be a last resort. To do this we need people find as many sites as they can and manage those sites. We need property owners permission to do this. So we will have to work with the property owners not against them. I plan to get a contract drawn up that will allow the person on the property, and just make sure that they plants stays healthy and monitor any threats. In this contract it will clearly state that the land owner is in control at all times, the land owner can at any time ask us to leave. That way the land owner never feels pressured. I think we can build relation ships with the owners and then gain their trust. If we do this we will in the end have more freedom to do as we please on their property.
If we at any time find a threat to some plants on the property, we try to find a solution. As an example, I'll use a situation of a piece of land that I have found some D.brevifolia. It's a vegetable and fruit farm. There is an irrigation pond and a dirt road runs all the way around it. Around one corner is where the D.brevifolia grows. They grow from the pond to the edge of the road. A lot of them have been ran over because of trucks and equipment driving through the area. In this case I would go to the owner and ask if we could build a fence to protect them at our expense. If the answer is no, I would then ask if we can move the plants. D.brevifolia are almost impossible to relocate, it's just an example.
If a member runs across a site with bulldozers on site, and there is no other options but to remove the plants, we will have a form already printed out and sent with the membership package. There will be a list of phone numbers of board members on the form. The NASC member will first call one of the board members and discuss the situation. If it is decided that the plants should be removed the member will try to get the person in charge of the construction to sign the form giving us permission to collect. If possible the form will be faxed to the board member, the board member will sign, and fax it back. If there are no fax machines nearby, the board member can give oral permission to collect and the sign the form later.
If it is not an emergency situation but the site will be developed, we are thinking that we will get two board members to agree to collect and then sign it.

These rules are not set in stone yet. They are just ideas for now. I welcome any ideas that anybody else has. If you have an idea either post it here or pm me.




Quote[/b] ]Wow Tre, sounds as if you have some experience here. Yes, wives deprived of access to their husband's credit cards can get rather grumpy.


Yeah that may make them grumpy, but they are grumpy any way, and it's better that they are just grumpy, then grumpy and broke.

[Treaqum]

Ozzy shouldn't you have posted that in the NASC forum thingy for consideration by everyone. Since I know not everyone is reading this thread.

[LauraZ5]

North American Sarracenia Conservancy = NASC. NASC would be the acronym for this combination of words.

I realize it has been a long time Tre however... the NASC is a fledgling and is dependent upon the collective gifts of time, talent, and resources of many members to get up and going. Please understand it is being fueled exclusively by volunteers. Volunteers are a priceless commodity in that without them, there would be no NASC. Volunteers are human beings though. They're a package deal and they come complete with all the responsibilities that being a member of the human race entails so the going can slow down in spots if members are pulled in too many directions. *Not much more I have to offer but please be patient as things will magically come together one day. *And someday that acronym will hopefully be known in all environmental and conservation circles. You'll see.

edited to add that I just realized two other posts came in since I read Tre's regarding what NASC stood for. Oops. Seems as if this thread now feels out of context.

[Treaqum]

Ahh the C. is consevancy I thought so. Oh don't worry about the time Laura. It will probibly be a few years before I can significantly contribute as I have made at least 1 officer aware of. I don't mean to be critical or anything, this is very helpful and sueful that you are doing this. Perhaps you can make the Tampa Bay Area CP society members aware of this and explain how these CPs are saved. I think they will be shocked. Of course I am one of several people with a grudge against those.... so I leave all the word spreading up to you. If or rather when you make a lobby group for congress,as all successful enviromental groups must have, I would be happy to contribute to that or give advice, etc. I would suggest you look at the Nature Conservancy's set up because if you will want ot do this right all these autions and so on will contribute liquid funds that will be used to purchise and restore Cp habitat. If not you will have a wonderful saving expedition on your hands and not much else. In fact I do fear that the NASC will become what it is aimed to destroy. I fear this will become a way to take genetically distinct plants from the wild even parks and send them into cultivation. I would like to be realistic. This conservancy can be done just not without hard work (as you know). Websites, newsletters all that will have to be sent out or produced inorder to show how serious this organisation is. Starting it from a forum and any attempts to run it jsut htrough this forum will not succeed in what you want it to succeed at. I would advise you to spread the word now. I know Barry supports this and so I'm sure he could get your website a directlink off of the ICPS website. I read Ozzy's post carefully and I want to warn you now. Sending out those faxed things may be wonderful and happy and good but there will be people who will want to get plants who will use the name of this organisation to poach. I am patient and I will wait but I want to warn you to be careful and pick people wisely. You will have to start off with a loyal base of savers people who will not take advantage of the organisation. "Bad" people will get into the membership and possibly the committee. Which in itself I do not nessicarily think is a good thing. And this organisation if truely that serious will need to prepare itself to be handed over so to speak to the younger generation when their time comes. When all the current commitee is 85 or whatever I shouldn't expect it to still be incharge because face it not that many old people are traveling around much less fit to do rigorous hikes through bogs. Maintaining the bogs will be more problems. I know that less then 7 houses away from me S. minor grows. Our deveoplement's commitee would never let me or anyone else manage these area because they have "perfectly able" lawnmen who do so. Which consists of throwing more tinder in the woods to shade the S. minor.

When I am able to help I will.

[SarraceniaScott]

Education is important in properly stewarding the land with the owners... many people will not do periodic controlled burns, but this is what is required to preserve the site.

Even the Nature Conservancy and many state/federal parks will not do it.

[Treaqum]

Many areas that I have found plants cannot do controlled burns. You need a cartain distance for residences and other buildings as well as making sure it will not cloud the road. + if there is a drought. So in fact many places probibly are not allowed to do it.

[Ozzy]

Yeah, I really should put this in the NASC forum but I have been busy moving, and I had planned to get settled in before I get anything officially wrote up. I just typed that out without any thought at all. Maybe I'll paste it there if I get time.

[LauraZ5]

Hi Tre, I am only an underling with the NASC. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me but I am not in a position to make any decisions regarding the direction of this organization. I do whole heartedly support those is positions of authority to the best of my ability and I would suggest that we all follow suit. You suggested the following, “Ozzy shouldn't you have posted that in the NASC forum thingy for consideration by everyone”. *It’s great for the Committee Chairs to be able to get input from others so perhaps this thread might get more “reads” if it is moved, however, decisions will need to be made by Board members such as Rose, 0zzy, PAK, and Bugweed. That’s just sort of the way Boards function best.

Hi SarraceniaScott, I am by no means an expert on controlled burns however I have participated in them before under the guidance of those considerably more experienced than I. *There do exist many situations in which a controlled burn is not in the best interests of the plants one might be trying to preserve. There are many factors that determine this. We can't paint with such a broad stroke as to state emphatically that "many people will not do periodic controlled burns, but this is what is required to preserve the site". *Other species of plants may be present and established at a site that may prohibit a controlled burn, narrow leaf cattails as well as phragmites come to mind. *Existing biomass can become a major concern. *We have several sites in my area that have been burning for over a year. The fires can't be put out. What began as a controlled burn ignited by some well intentioned individual has ended up a smoldering nightmare that could conceivably burn for many years to come all because someone took a cavalier approach to site management. *Additionally, in some counties controlled burns are prohibited. Does the NASC necessarily want people out there managing sites by "routinely" conducting controlled burns regardless of the hydrology or lack there of or regardless of the type of biomass present but not taken into consideration? There are many more variables in need of being factored in to determine whether a controlled burn is feasible or not. I certainly am not qualified to make that determination. Few are. *There are other activities in which one can participate at a site to insure perpetuation of a species. It doesn’t always have to be a controlled burn and could simply be the mechanical removal of introduced species encroaching and degrading Sarracenis habitat. *Exotic species can and often do outcompete native species and do need to be controlled, managed, and eradicated. Controlled burns are just one of many ways to control invasive species that threaten native plants.

Speaking of fires... right now as I type, 500 acres of the Illinois State Beach Park are consumed in flames thanks to some moron. I volunteer at this park and I am listening to it on the radio. They have detained the man who was allegedly caught starting the fires. Our park was home to countless species of threatened and endangered species. *I am a monitor for an endangered orchid over there. Our park was only 700 acres. I am aghast. *There are 18 fire departments allegedly on site trying to put it out before it consumes even more land. Ash is falling from the sky as if there is a volcanic eruption of some sort. How incredibly depressing.

[Ozzy]

Treaqum, I read your post on the last page and then made the post above without reading all the posts on this page.
I agree with most of what you said. We can't let the NASC become a poaching organization, and we can't let ourselves get a poaching reputation. Many of your thoughts have already been considered by board members but maybe they haven't been addresses publicly. Everything that I posted was just me running my mouth without much thought at all. I need to put a lot of thought into my ideas before they are made policy. What I said was mostly just ideas that I have. Other things are things that me and Rose have discussed. We need to have a lawyer look at the forms that we draw up before they are approved by the board. We are just getting on our feet and we need to learn to walk before we start running. Any plant that is collected in the name of the NASC, will have to be done 100% legally, and EVERY procedure we set into place be followed. Some of the things I want to made into procedure is:
1. All plant material collected goes to the NASC.
2. At least two board member review and agree that the plants should be collected. If we have enough time I would recommend that all collections be put before the board for vote before any collection is made. In some emergency situation that may not be possible. But before any plant is collected at least one board member must agree, then the decision will be reviewed by the board to make sure that the right decision was made. The board member that approved the collection will be responsible to the board for the decision.

Remember these are just my, not so thought out, opinions. None of what I have said has been reviewed by the board.
I can assure you that we have sound board members, and none of our board members are in this for personal gain. Please PM me or post any concerns that you have here so that we can get it all out in the open, and address them. That will make the NASC a more sound organization in the end.

[Treaqum]

Will do. I jsut wanted my thoughts to be known. I knew Bugweed and Copper were involved but I did not know how big (or rather small) the board was. I am glad the board is not a seperate entity but actually the officers and is small and filled with dedicated people who will do anything to get this thing off the ground. And again I am here to do as you ask of me probibly not for 6 years unforntalyy as Rose and Bugweed know.

Oh and SS controlled burns also cannot be done on area that have not been burned to recently. I know that if some idiot threw a cigarette into the woods near my house and they got lit on fire it would not be controlled. Controlled means the amount of tinder will let a quike burn go through that will not kill everything. It will allow the hardy-er stuff to survive like our hungary friends. Too much tinder is in that forest. Everything would be burned in such a hot fire I bet only one or two at most trees would survive. Not to mention the houses going up in flames.

[Clint]

is it practical to burn the plants in culture?

[ZAK]

The burnings are primarily to knock down invasive species that grow much quicker, and can over grow their cp counterparts. Byblis to my knowledge would be the only plant requiring fire.

[aprilh]

The trouble with letting only "certain people" participate in plant rescues is that ONLY these "certain people" will end up going on plant rescues, and they most likely will keep all the plants for themselves. It's usually very clique-ish.

How do I know?

I used to belong to Wild Ones, and our chapter did many plant rescues. I was a fully paid member, and I was never invited. The "in" crowd was, however. The "in" crowd got themselves very nice native plant gardens, for free. Did they share these plants with other chapter members? Nope. Aprilh.

[Sarraceniaobsessed]

April,
You make a very good point. However, all organizations are not the same and it is not fair to generalize. The last 'rescue' I did, I shipped 114 S. rubra ssp. gulfensis plants out across the country and when all was said and done I did not even have one of the plants left for me. I forgot to hold one back. Don't mistake this for complaining. I'd do it again in a heart beat.

Before I get bombarded with kind requests, I do have a Crestview rubra now.

[Ozzy]

My opinion is that if you join an organization that saves plant to get free plants, you're just a collector that has found a cheap way to get plants. If this is what people are expecting from the NASC, then you've joined the wrong organization. This is not a find a site that's being destroyed, so grab as many plants as you can group. We are putting together a strict chain of command. We are setting rules up so that we can weed out the people that are looking for free plants. There will be no clique. Just trusted individuals with one mission.

[LauraZ5]

There actually are some organizations out there that encourage their members to totally strip sites by taking plant material home even if all you do is pot it up and pass it on. After the threatened and endangered species are removed and transferred to the appropriate parties by trained volunteers that have been thoroughly screened, that still generally leaves a considerable amount of plant material that may be native. I'm referring to waste not want not in this particular situation.

My particular Wild Ones Chapter actually wants its members to take home as much native vegetation as is humanly possible from target sites (specifically those slated to be excavated and turned into seas of asphalt or cookie cutter barefoot chemically dependent residential lawns) to keep and plant on their own properties or to distribute to friends, family, and neighbors for their properties. *They want everything from herbaceous perennials to woodies removed if at all humanly possible.

The issue for the local Chapter that April is referring to is that a long time ago a man with the best of intentions volunteered to organize plant "rescues" for the general membership. He was set up as the sole contact. Now mind you, these are actual plant rescues in the true sense of the word as all the threatened and endangered species will have already been removed and relocated to insure perpetuation of the species for future generations to enjoy... anyway, he went south so to speak.

He receives the faxes at his home and basically sits on them. He doesn't put forth the effort to organize anything any longer and half the time he doesn't even bother visiting a site himself. *What's really infuriating is when you spot a site with heavy equipment on it and ask him if he knew about it, he'll tell you that he received a fax after the permit was approved months ago and invite you to stop over any time and he'll give you copies. It's gotten to the point that the only people who have knowledge of which sites have building permits in place with secured consents are his personal friends and neighbors who stop in for other reasons. *He really should resign from the position and let somebody else take over but I suppose he likes the title even if he no longer does the work. These things happen from time to time and sooner or later somebody will question why it is that no plant "rescues" have been organized for about 3 years running now.

And yes, his neighbors and his little inner circle have some very nice native plant gardens. Sad but true and it happens all the time around here.

Now there is another local Wild Ones that is well organized and these issues do not exist. Their volunteers are like Brooks in that they go in and remove specific species and then redistribute to approved recipients. What's rather interesting is that most of these people who do the grunt labor of removing the plants, don't provide care for them. I can't say as I blame them. *After you remove about 100-200 of them in one marathon session you sure as heck don't want to look at so much as even one of them for another few years until it gets moved to a permanent location.

Given the invasion process is well underway as well as the current state of our watersheds, sitting on any native plant material is unconscionable. The roots of native plants are very deep with many species extending 20' or greater. That was no typo as I meant 20 feet. These species, regardless of how common they may be, are desperately needed in all of our landscapes if not for anything else but erosion control as well as the sake of attempting to restore some semblance of balance to our fragile ecosystems. Barring the above, we desperately need to focus on preserving diversity as most species are co-dependent for lack of a better term.

In addition to Wild Ones, I am also a member of a few other groups. Plants Of Concern comes to mind and they are geared to deal with endangered and threatened species almost exclusively however they provide care for any other native species that are present in the native plant community. They monitor existing communities of endangered and threatened species and make sure that exotic species are controlled, managed, and eradicated so as to insure the native species are not out competed. They want to make sure future generations don't view these species only in picture books. The INPS also has a similar program as does the North American Native Plant Society, Nature Serve, United Plant Savers, the Center For WildLife and Plant Ecology, The Wetlands Initiative, and The Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center and of course the North American Plant Collections Consortium. I am relatively sure The Nature Conservancy has something going on also.

I might as well add that my property is certified "Acres For WildLife" so any and all plant material used in my upland and lowland woodlands or wetlands is approved and sources disclosed and documented. The vast majority of what I have is purchased from State nurseries but I also purchase from NP sales and NP nurseries that maintain local genotype lines. Other than that, I get seed from my own property and from fellow Wild Ones Members with location and source data and I do just fine. I currently have no material growing on this property from any plant rescues although I actually help with NP plant rescues as well as a NP seed bank. *I do have several species that I purchased that will ultimately be used for restoration projects in the local area. We need to collectively hoard these species for our grandchildren. Nobody needs to field collect other than for the sake of pure and unadulterated greed and possessiveness in my humble opinion. *There is absolutely no reason to reduce one's self to the level of a field collector as it has been my experience that most CP people are comparable to most Native Plant people in that they all share. With so many sources out there that are legit, why do it.

[Kirkscoastalcarnivores]

Change of plans I dont get to go bogging

[aprilh]

Quote[/b] ]My opinion is that if you join an organization that saves plant to get free plants, you're just a collector that has found a cheap way to get plants. If this is what people are expecting from the NASC, then you've joined the wrong organization. This is not a find a site that's being destroyed, so grab as many plants as you can group. We are putting together a strict chain of command. We are setting rules up so that we can weed out the people that are looking for free plants. There will be no clique. Just trusted individuals with one mission. Ozzy


Ozzy,

1) From what I see, the disorganization, the lack of a business model or plan, etc., etc., etc…..tells me the NASC doesn't really exist at this time. I volunteered a while ago, and never heard anything back. And I'm really not interested in being, nor can I or anyone be, a member of something that doesn't exist.

2) I have been involved with prairie restoration and land conservation since around 1978 or 1980. I have been a volunteer at the Wolf Road Prairie restoration, the West Chicago Prairie restoration, and am now a volunteer involved in Prairie/Woodland/Wetland restoration and maintenance at a local State Park.

3) Up until the time I volunteered at the local SP, 3 years ago, I never received a free plant. Ever. At the local SP, if there are plants that have sprouted up in the wrong area in the nursery beds, volunteers are allowed to take these strays home, because if they were re-planted in the nursery beds, they would die because there currently isn’t a volunteer to take care of the nursery beds. I have taken 4 plants. They are: Tradescantia Ohiensis, Aster Laevis, Sorgastrum Nutans, and Schizachyrium Scoparium. These are all very common prairie plants.

4) I have been on many, many, many, many state and federally permitted, legal rescues (20+), including, yes, the S. Purpurea Purpurea, and I didn’t take anything. Not a twig. Didn’t give a rat’s about Sarracennias back then, outside of their being one of the indicator plants for high quality wetland. I have already purchased, from reputable sources, the native plants I wanted, OR dug them from friend’s land before the land was logged. I don’t go for common prairie or woodland plants(though I have lots of those, too). I go for the stuff that’s endangered, for the purpose of propagation and hopefully restoration to its native habitat, if any can be found. Until that time, they sit contentedly blooming safe and sound, making seed and new little plants that I SHARE. And not with just a select inner circle, either. I put plants and seed up for SASE and trade on Garden Web every year. Not too much in the way of CP seed or plants up for trade there, I’ve noticed.

I really don’t need to join an organization to get free plants. And I’m happy and content with the amount of CP I have now, most of which were given to me free by really, really nice people. I joined Terra AFTER I BOUGHT plants. I joined Terra to find out how to take proper care of them, not score freebies.


Quote[/b] ] We are setting rules up so that we can weed out the people that are looking for free plants. There will be no clique. Just trusted individuals with one mission.

Who will administer these rules? Who is "we"? A board? Elected or appointed? Trusted individuals chosen by whom? The same people who chose Casper?

I don’t appreciate having my motives, or anyone else’s, impugned.

Have a nice day, Ozzy, and best of luck with the NASC.

April H.

[Ozzy]

April, I replied to what you said. You made a comment about people using the wild ones (I think) to keep all the plants for themselves and their friends. I was refering to people like them, I never made any reference to you. You lumped yourself into that catogory, not me.
You said the NASC don't exist. You're almost right. We are not up and running yet, and we don't have the ablity to save many plants, YET. There was some people that wanted to put the horse before the cart and start going out and save plants, get our name out before we really even existed. The first thing we need to do is to get non-profit status. Then we can move forward. If you don't want to be part of this there is nobody forcing you to. We don't need somebody hanging around telling us what we're doing wrong when she don't have a clue to what's going on behind the scene.
The board members were elected. I don't know who choose Casper, that was before I was a real part of the NASC. Again this is another thing where you're running your mouth but don't know any facts. Casper had or has a teminal disease. We don't know if he's even alive. He was an honest man, that had no need to steal any money. You have no right to drag his name through the mud, when you don't have a clue who he is or his physical condition.

[LauraZ5]

Let's all just stop please as we will all begin reading into what is typed and without the body language and the inflections in our voices to go along with the typed words, it is difficult to discern how to interpret posts such as these. Please, let's not read more into what is typed than what may be there.

In my heart I do not believe that Casper is all that he led others to believe he was and I would have to agree with the comments Bugweed made about him previously. I believe we all read those comments. April's comments were benign by comparison.

[aprilh]

Terminally ill people can be thieving jerks, too. *Having a terminal illness does not automatically confer sainthood on the person bearing the illness, or excuse the sufferor from doing what is right.

If the person in question had no need to steal money..then why did it disappear? *Where is it? What action was taken against this person or their estate? *If none, why not? *Mail fraud is mail fraud is mail fraud.....and the PO doesn't like it much. They'd prosecute it for free. * *

Last I heard, Casper had some issues with hurricanes in FL. *Nothing about a terminal illness. *

Did this person actually pass away? *Is there a death certificate? *You must understand, that if you're going to start an organisation, every single thing you do and say, and every action you take or lack thereof must be completely verifiable and transparent. *Not only for future memberships and reputation's sake, but for auditing purposes. *The IRS is a much bigger nasty term for a lady than I am.

And I'll repeat...I volunteered to do grunt work for the NASC, whatever asked...but no one could be bothered to get back to me, or quite a few of the other people who volunteered, also. *

I don't have a clue as to what's going on behind the scenes because the powers-that-think-they-are keep what's going on behind the scenes pretty close to their chests. *And they're not very forth-coming, are they? *Aprilh

[PlantAKiss]

Well, let's see...the organization The Wild Ones has been in existence since 1979. *That's what...25 years? *So I'd say a comparison between NASC, who is in the very early stages of forming, and an organization that's had 25 years to get its act together is just a TAD unfair. *Wouldn't you agree?

And as far as who is on the board and who is "running" NASC...we had an **open call for nominations for positions** and pretty much got ZIPPO. *NADA. *NE RIEN. *A few people got nominated and most declined. *No one wanted the responsibility. *Everyone wants to grow the plants because that's fun!...nobody wanted to be in a position of responsibility because that is WORK. *We've been through two pro-tem Presidents. *So the folks that you see on the board are the FEW...the VERY few...who were willing to at least TRY and stick with it while dealing with jobs, kids, family issues, illnesses and tragedies.

I'd say TRYING is better than doing nothing at all. *Anyone who did not step up to the plate and offer to take a leadership position has no right to criticize those who did. *Maybe there ARE people "out there" who could do it better...but where were they? *Where ARE they?? *This little rag-tag group is HERE and working under difficult circumstances (scattered across the country and having to deal with our "real lives").

Are we disorganized? *Yes. *Have there been mistakes made? *Yes. *Will there be more? *Absolutely YES!

Not one of us who is on the board has any experience creating, organizing and running a not-for-profit organization. *So what do you expect? *No one is a business expert. *No one is a legal expert. *No one is a conservation expert. *If any of you out there ARE experts in these areas...we could sure use your help! *But no, we're just a handful of people...a cop, a graphic artist, a phone man, an electrician and a (Schloaty...I don't know what you are! *lol), who think this is a worthy cause and want to do something to achieve it even if it takes 25 years. *Do you expect everything to be up and running efficiently like The Wild Ones in a year? *Two? *Ask Barry Rice how long it took the ICPS to get formed and running smoothly.

I couldn't BEGIN to throw stones at a group of people who have sunk their hearts and a lot of work into this project however slow and disorganized it may appear. *Anyone who thinks they can do better....DO IT!! *Who cares who does it as long as it gets done!

This is not about "who" or "how" or "how long"...its about STARTING something...an idea...a movement...towards a worthwhile goal. *Something needs to START and we are trying to do that.

No one is required to be involved. *If you don't like it, don't agree with it, think it could be done better...then be about it! *Go do it! *Until then...negative comments achieve nothing.

Its possible this organization will fail. *But if it does, at least *I* can say I tried!

Starting an organization like this is difficult...its slow. *We must take the baby steps before we can walk and running is a long ways off. *And I can't believe anyone could dare to compare NASC to other long-established organizations. *Why don't you write to some of them and ask how long it took before they had EVERYTHING in place and were running smoothly?

There are a LOT of people waiting PATIENTLY for an assignment. We have lots of heart and willing folks "out there" just waiting for the word. And when NASC gets to the point where we can start making assignments for our willing workers, then we will. Until then...people must wait and I'm sorry if our slow pace doesn't fit someone else's schedule or expectations. This isn't "Instant Organization"...add a cup of milk, heat in microwave and...TA DA...you have a well-oiled machine of an organization. That's a fairy tale.

And by the way...I find it appalling to see all the judgements flying about regarding a man that most of you "accusers" didn't know from Adam. *How can you judge a person you had NO interaction with whatsoever? *To many of you, the name "Casper" is nothing but that...a name. *To me, he was a friend whom I talked to on the phone, online, via PM and email. *Who the H are you to judge a total stranger?? *None of us know what happened to Casper and the money although we've tried to find out....but between the two...I have more concern for Casper than the money. *Money is replaceable...human beings are not.

[LauraZ5]

This is painting with a very broad brush stroke however tension appears to be high as are frustrations and disappointments-

Quote[/b] ]Everyone wants to grow the plants because that's fun!...

[PlantAKiss]

OK...pardon the literary generalization. Not EVERYONE wanted to grow plants, but we sure had a heck of lot more volunteers to grow plants than to take on the Presidency and other Board/Committee positions. In fact, NO ONE wanted the Presidency.

[Kirkscoastalcarnivores]

Quote[/b] (aprilh @ June 20 2005,3:24)]I don’t appreciate having my motives, or anyone else’s, impugned.
Thats how I felt when the first thing people did was accuse me of trying to poach.

And also, I posted in the volunteer thread and said that I would be happy to do any after school work and no one pm'ed me either. Now, I will give you the benifit of the doubt here and understand that you guys have very busy schedules and not enough time to pm every single person who posted there but my problem is this:
The first thing people posted after I made that post was what I thought an attempt to tell me I couldn't do it because I was too young. I happen to be good friends with this person so I dont think it is personal, but I feel like you have alot of young members here and most of us are not as busy as you, unlike you we dont have a busy schedule and kids to deal with, so alot of us I am sure would be ready and willing to help. but we can't because the rules might classify us as too young. We are all capable of helping alot with this, why dont you at least let us try?

[PlantAKiss]

There is a place for the younger members for sure but we need to get more organized and flesh out what we want to accomplish and how that will be done before we start giving anyone "official" assignments. We have had people working on various things in the past but that is kind of on hold for now.

[aprilh]

Quote[/b] ]To me, he was a friend whom I talked to on the phone, online, via PM and email.

Some friend. Heard from him lately?

Let me get this straight....you're angry because I
called into question the character of someone who disappeared with funds from the organisation that you claim to care so deeply about? And that nothing had been done about it? Please.

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa. Shoot me for pointing out the obvious. Give me a minute, I'll go get the hair shirt out of storage.

I wasn't comparing the NASC to anything, actually. I was more reacting to Ozzy's "we have a board and we will decide who's trustworthy and we will decide who gets plants" thing. Whatever. That's fine...y'all can do what you want. Nothing against Ozzy. You apparently have the policy already set in stone.

I was also aggravated that Kirk's integrity was called into question immediately. Who's to say who's going to poach? Or not?

I felt compelled to comment that choosing someone who's trustworthy is apparently a lot harder than some of you thought. I also felt compelled to comment that the NASC as it sits right now, is disorganised, and doesn't really exist. It's a new organisation, and some disorganisation is to be expected in any new organisation. That's all. I wasn't comparing it to any other organisation.

I won't mention names, but I have been in similar organisations that were just as disorganised, and have been around a lot longer. They are that way because of the crony-ism, politic-playing, corruption and greed of some of the officers. Hope it doesn't happen to the NASC. That would indeed be a shame.


Quote[/b] ]There are a LOT of people waiting PATIENTLY for an assignment. We have lots of heart and willing folks "out there" just waiting for the word. And when NASC gets to the point where we can start making assignments for our willing workers, then we will.

This is funny. You don't "assign" volunteers....you take the time to find out their interests, then put them to work where their strengths and interests lay. You know, actually pretend you care about them. Otherwise, you lose volunteers fast.


Quote[/b] ] A few people got nominated and most declined. No one wanted the responsibility.

Maybe the nominees just weren't interested? Maybe they knew they didn't have the skills required to do the job? I'm sure some of them didn't want any extra responsibility, too.

Why would someone who's strengths are in the administrative realm volunteer for a board position?

Good luck with the NASC.

[PlantAKiss]

Quote[/b] ]Let me get this straight....you're angry because I
called into question the character of someone who disappeared with funds from the organisation that you claim to care so deeply about? *And that nothing had been done about it? Please.

I'm not happy about the situation but I still care more about Casper's well-being than the money. *It's not like a million dollars disappeared. *Yes, it was a nice chunk of change and no, no one is very thrilled about its status in limbo, but I don't see it as an issue to get bogged down over. *It happened. *No one planned it or wanted it to happen. *Can't turn back the hands of time and I'm not gonna sit around and cry for a year over it. *Get over it and move forward. *We have a lot more to worry about than one member and some money who are out contact.

I will consider Casper a friend until facts prove otherwise. I'm sorry...that's just how I am. * Right now, no one knows what happened and who am I to sit in judgement of the situation without all the facts. *I'm not a judgemental person and I don't "call into question the character" of someone until I know all the facts regarding a particular situation. *And how do you know "nothing has been done about it"??


Quote[/b] ]This is funny. *You don't "assign" volunteers....you take the time to find out their interests, then put them to work where their strengths and interests lay. You know, actually pretend you care about them. *Otherwise, you lose volunteers fast.

Maybe you missed the pinned topic at the top of the forum where we ask the members to post their interests and strengths so we have it to refer to when we get to the point of needing help on various assignments. *That topic has been there since the creation of this forum. *People do post to it from time to time and I think it will be a great reference tool when we are ready for it. *And when we have a project that needs workers, we will refer to that topic, contact the members who posted their interests to see if they are willing to take on an assignment.


Quote[/b] ]Maybe they knew they didn't have the skills required to do the job?

NONE of us have the skills required for the job. Did you miss that part of my post where I said we are all average Joes and Josephines trying to take on a monumental task? *That's why its taking so long for us to figure it out and get our feet under us. *The point is, we are TRYING because we think its a good idea and would like to see it happen. *I would LOVE it if we had someone who had experience in setting up and running a non profit...but we didn't and don't. *At least not that I know of. *We haven't gotten any emails or PMs from anyone informing us that they have these skills and want to take over a leadership position like the Presidency.

So...we will continue to do our best. *I still believe that doing SOMETHING is better than sitting around saying "Tsk tsk...so sad that the plants are being torn out of their habitat." *And I'm sorry if our best isn't good enough for some people. *No one HAS to be involved in this long-term project. *I'm sure some people would be better suited to working with other, well-established organizations that don't have the start-up issues we do. *Like I said...go for it! *If anyone can do better, I invite and encourage you to go do it! *Doesn't matter who accomplishes it as long as it gets done.

[aprilh]

Quote[/b] ]I'm not happy about the situation but I still care more about Casper's well-being than the money. *It's not like a million dollars disappeared. *Yes, it was a nice chunk of change and no, no one is very thrilled about its status in limbo, but I don't see it as an issue to get bogged down over. *It happened. *No one planned it or wanted it to happen. *Can't turn back the hands of time and I'm not gonna sit around and cry for a year over it. *Get over it and move forward. *We have a lot more to worry about than one member and some money who are out contact.

I understand your worry about Casper, since he's your alleged "friend"...BUT...I'm not the only one asking these questions. *They need to be asked, and, more importantly, they need to be answered definatively. In order for your organisation to be trusted and successful, everything about it is going to have to be 100% transparent. To the membership and the IRS. *Every word said during board meetings, open accounting books, etc. *I work for a 501-3C (501-C3?) non-profit. *

I'm still trying to figure out WHY any of you would defend someone who appears to have stolen from you. Very, very bizarre, IMO. *If Casper suddenly ponies up the money, I guess you guys will think he's a hero. *

No, a million dollars did not disappear...just ALL the proceeds from your first auction, am I correct? *How much are those very pretty colour brochures going to cost to print up?

Theft is theft. Period. There is NO excuse for it. Death, dying, hurricane rescue, whatever. Letting someone off the hook for taking money from the NASC smells bad. Covering for someone who absconds with money smells bad. *It smells really bad to me and I am not a member. It is something that would make me avoid membership. You really, really, REALLY want to avoid bad smells, especially in the realm of non-profits. *If you're a board member, PAK...your ultimate loyalty MUST be to the NASC. Period. You don't want to make people think the better of being a member. If action is being taken, the board needs to spell out, to every single person involved in that auction, what action is being taken. *Secrets are for 5 year olds. *

If the dang money was a long term loan to Casper...why not just come out and say it? *If he's ill or dead, I'm sure people would understand. *

As an organisation, you absolutely CAN NOT afford to be so laissez-faire about financial malfaesance, or the financial aspects involving NASC monies on the part of any officer, volunteer, or contractor. **You* are asking for a lawsuit, *you* are asking for an audit. *Especially since the money was collected to benefit a "charity"...the NASC. *Is Casper a non-profit? *

The NASC has to be much more serious and grow UP about it's finances, among other things....otherwise, it will not be taken seriously. *It will attract no serious volunteers, or monies. And it will face continual and crippling audits by the IRS. This incident is a real good starting point, by letting others know that this sort of behaviour will not be tolerated, and will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. *aprilh

[PlantAKiss]

Quote[/b] ]How much are those very pretty colour brochures going to cost to print up?

They are free. I print them up at no cost to anyone at my office.

[aprilh]

Quote[/b] ]They are free. *I print them up at no cost to anyone at my office

Nice avoid, Pak. You answered NONE of my questions. Board members are accountable to the membership, or anyone else who asks. *Period. Would the brochures still be free if you had to print up 1 thousand or 5 thousand or 10 thousand of them? Colour printing is EXPENSIVE. *Especially when done on office colour printers. *I'm assuming you don't work at a 4-colour offset lithography print shop. *If you do, I sincerely apologise, and am happy you can get the "pressman's discount" on them. *Rock on. *

Apparently, the board has only it's own best interests and "friendships" at heart, which should be a big tip off to anyone wanting to volunteer/work for/be involved with the NASC. *It's not about saving the plants...it's about feelings! Sunshine and rainbows for everyone! Aprilh

[PlantAKiss]

April, its no "avoid." I'm not going to argue with you. You have your opinions and I have mine. If you wish to continue to publicly bash me and NASC, feel free. Go for it! I really don't care. I tendered my resignation to the Board last week. It is up to them to vote for acceptance or not. I really don't understand your vehemence on the subject considering the fact that you say you aren't a member of NASC. Most people who don't support the project simply don't bother with this forum or its issues. But go right ahead telling us, or me, what we SHOULD be doing and what we HAVEN'T done and any other negative, discouraging comment you can think of. Although if you really care, I think you'd be better off contacting our President or Vice President and raising your "concerns" with him/her directly rather than continuing your diatribe here.

We have a LOT of people who do support this and are willing to have patience through the growing pains. And with their support, with me or without me, I'm hoping this will succeed. But it IS a long-term project and not something that is going to happen overnight. I have the patience for it. Some people don't. Ca va!

I grew up in the printing business. My father owned his own print shop and I practically lived there as a child. I worked for 12 years in advertising. I'm an in-house graphic artist working directly with company clients, print houses, magazines, newspapers and other advertising media vendors creating a wide variety marketing materials. So yeah...I know a LITTLE bit about the process and costs of 4-color printing.

Have a nice day. http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif

[Ozzy]

Quote[/b] ]It's not about saving the plants...it's about feelings! Sunshine and rainbows for everyone! Aprilh

How would you know what it's about, you're not a part of it?

[Colieo]

I'm not truely involved in this, but with the word "audit" flying around so much, I wanted to ask my father (an IRS regional manager) what the implacations could be for something like this, just to make sure we truly grasped what an audit would involve. (First off, April, your right, he says it is a 501-C3.) I explained to him the situation with the NASC and Casper. I personaly do not see Casper making-off with the money (Remember, INNOCENT until proven guilty) but that is to be found out later; but if he did, my dad argrees that he has opened himself up to a lot of trouble. Mail fraud, tax exasion, embezzlement, state, local and federal tax dues...ect. However, as the situation is that Casper would have been stealing the money from the NASC, my father doesn't feel that the NASC has much to worry about at this point. He feels that Casper would be the target of any IRS audit, not NASC.

Cole