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Pinguicula macroceras subsp. nortensis

  • #21
Hey Juergen, how did your P. vallisneriifolia end up doing this year? Did you end up growing it in peat? Or did you go with a pure mineral mix?
 
  • #22
Wow, shortly after my last message in this thread, two entries in the Photofinder have changed from "subspecies" to "forma" ("f."), accordingly to the official naming now:
http://www.cpphotofinder.com/pinguicula-grandiflora-subsp-chionopetra-3380.html
http://www.cpphotofinder.com/pinguicula-grandiflora-subsp-pallida-3381.html

Hey Juergen, how did your P. vallisneriifolia end up doing this year? Did you end up growing it in peat? Or did you go with a pure mineral mix?

P. vallisneriifolia is still a problem species for me. I tried growing them in pure peat in 2009 and this definitely does not work! I started with a portion of small winter gemmae and the first three months or so they seem OK in peat, then decline. By the mid of summer 2010 I replanted the last remaining three little plantlets into a limestone/peat mix. One survived the winter 2010/11 and from that start I have left one plant now that still lives (and had shown a single flower this year).

I did another start with another portion of P. vallisneriifolia winter gemmae early this year. I still do not use "pure mineral mix" but my current mix with peat for P. vallisneriifolia is a mix of:
1:1:1:1:1:2 limestone grit (12...16mm):crushed limestone (1...3 mm grain) : quartz sand : vermiculite : clay : peat
So something more than 2/3 is minerals, the rest is peat.

P. vallisneriifolia seems to do much better in this substrate than in pure peat.
But I'm still not satisfied: Plants grow very slow, stay small, look weak
All my little P. vallisneriifolia have now developed their winter buds. Small winter buds.
Winter buds of P. vallisneriifolia appear very early, and how well the plants did this summer I can only tell when the winter is over and I can see and count the number and size of P. vallisneriifolia I have next spring.

On the other side, P. macroceras ssp. nortensis has been growing until lately and now still is with its summer leaves. Picture as of today:
Pinguicula_macroceras_ssp_nortensis18.jpg

P. macroceras is MUCH easier for me to grow than P. vallisneriifolia.
 
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  • #23
Juergen,

here is Eric Partrat's method of growing P. vallisneriifolia http://www.pinguicula.org/pages/plantes/pinguicula_vallisneriifolia.htm. He grows it in a pure mineral substrate. I think if you have spare gemmae, it would be worth trying both methods to see how they do. I got a dormant bud in May, and plan on growing it under lights soon in a pure mineral substrate. This is a harder plant to cultivate, so it may be picky with the conditions we give them.

Your P. macroceras look awesome!!! I've had a lot of the seeds you sent me germinate sporadically, and I think with winter coming up, it might give the rest a chance to stratify, so I think I'll get more in the spring. I'm looking forward to having a bog garden that looks like yours full of temperate pings!
 
  • #24
here is Eric Partrat's method of growing P. vallisneriifolia http://www.pinguicula.org/pages/plantes/pinguicula_vallisneriifolia.htm. He grows it in a pure mineral substrate.

Yes, he is from France. Also "jeff 2" on this forum is from France and suggests pure mineral substrate for several Ping species. But I'm not yet convinced. In my area (Northern Germany) the winter temperatures go much lower than in France. We may have sharp frost with no snow covering for several weeks each year. Lowest temperatures drop to -15°C = 5°F each year and some winters even lower. My concern is, that if a substrate cannot hold enough water, the winter buds will be freeze-dried and not survive the winter months. I just use a thin horticural garden fleece during frost periods to protect the mini-bogs while no snow is present during heavy frost.

Of course I can (and will or even must) do more experiments on substrate, but unfortunately it is very time consuming to do tests: Only if a substrate proves to be suitable for use in summer AND winter, it is really a good substrate. For hardy Pinguicula the life cycle through the whole year is essential, not only a few months during spring or summer.

I think if you have spare gemmae, it would be worth trying both methods to see how they do.

If I'd purchase more portions of gemmae, I could do more experiments with P. vallisneriifolia. Unfortunately I will not be able to have good success with harvesting gemmae of P. vallisneriifolia myself, from what I have seen on growing my plants this summer. So my experimenting will be limited. Especially because I also want other temperate species to establish in my mini-bogs.

Next spring I will have twice as much of P. grandiflora ready for flowering as this year. And another species looks promising currently: P. spec. "Rio Ara". They seem to like the same conditions as P. grandiflora does. Meaning that they grow in pure peat as well as in the same mineral mix that I posted in my posting above. P. spec. "Rio Ara" can develop nice reddish leaves under a bit of sun. I still must prove whether they do well during the winter in my climate.

At the moment I do not put all eggs into one basket with my hardy Pinguicula. I try to grow different species and do my observations, what's growing easy and what's not in my garden.

I propagate what's easy for me, until I have a full mini-bog of them under those conditions that have proven to be all right. I try one or two new species and hybrids each year. And I retry one or two species that I could not keep alive in earlier years by varying the conditions (like substrate and more).

I got a dormant bud in May, and plan on growing it under lights soon in a pure mineral substrate. This is a harder plant to cultivate, so it may be picky with the conditions we give them.

Perhaps I should visit the plant nursery some day, where I purchase my gemmae of hardy Pinguicula. It is also in Germany, only a few hundreds Kilometres away. Perhaps I can find out what they do to cultivate and propagate P. vallisneriifolia successfully. I think they are using their greenhouses, at least for some time of the year.

Your P. macroceras look awesome!!! I've had a lot of the seeds you sent me germinate sporadically, and I think with winter coming up, it might give the rest a chance to stratify, so I think I'll get more in the spring.

I have also sown some seeds of P. macroceras (although I have enough plants). A good fraction of them is germinating without cold stratification. I keep the seed pot in my cellar under LED lighting, I'm guessing the first germination starts after 4 weeks and it is stretching over a long time. I think between 4 and 12 weeks after sowing there will be a germination rate of 25 or 30%. That's BTW the same as with P. grandiflora, they will even show a bit higher germination rate without previous cold stratification (at least when the seeds are fresh).

But with P. grandiflora the germination without stratification may already be a "positive selection", because I already grew the mother plants from seeds - without stratification.

I'm looking forward to having a bog garden that looks like yours full of temperate pings!

Best wishes!
 
  • #25
with no peat see here their 'in situ' ecology

P10100118.JPG


you see peat ?

use a no agglomerate and no scented cat litter .

jeff

very interesting picture! thank you for sharing
 
  • #26
suite

Bonjour

for instant macroceras subsp nortensis seem for me just an ecotype to macroceras subsp macroceras , but may be in japon some others intraspecific name can be proposed for some taxon like a variety or a form.

the recent studie from B.RICE , for me, seem incomplete the spur and corolla size are not the only morphological caracter to take into account , the lobs and throat color on several population seem to me also important .

on grandiflora it is very clear , you have

grandiflora subsp grandiflora (autoname, type) ( blue violet)
grandiflora subsp rosea (pink) may be just a form or a variety ( in studie at present))
grandiflora subsp grandiflora f ( var)pallida (clear blue)
grandiflora subsp grandiflora f ( var)chinopetra ( white)

and may be grandiflora subsp grandiflora f(var) asturiensis ( in studie at present)

reuteri is a synonyme to f pallida this last name is noted on the document before reuteri , the 2 description are the same, it is just a problem from anteriority.

vallisneriifolia is clearly a calcareous specie .

for the temperate you have 3 substrate sort ; acid ( peat) ,calcareous ,unknown (either one or the other on the same specie) see here my web site , clic on 'habitats" lien

JESSE if you have some problem with vallisneriifolia in your country , put them to a more high temperature in winter ( example in a cold greenhouse) here( LE MANS) with -5°c outdoor I have no problem .

jeff

my grow list
 
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  • #27
for instant macroceras subsp nortensis seem for me just an ecotype to macroceras subsp macroceras , but may be in japon some others intraspecific name can be proposed for some taxon like a variety or a form.

As I have heard even in the small Oregon/California border region there are several populations of P. macroceras ssp. nortensis that look somewhat different in their flowers. Perhaps someone who has visited different populations in situ and taken photos can show pictures showing the different flowers of different populations.

Anybody has P. macroceras ssp. nortensis in cultivation where the flowers look very different from my plants?

the recent studie from B.RICE , for me, seem incomplete the spur and corolla size are not the only morphological caracter to take into account , the lobs and throat color on several population seem to me also important .

I think botanists do not give much on the color of flowers to define a subspecies. Color is something that gets lost in herbarium collections when the plants are dried. So in most cases, if a holotype specimen in a herbarium looks identical to another, dried 100 years earlier, it is the same species for a botanist. Color to be neglected (exceptions exist). Dried specimen in herbarium collections are the most important source for botanists to consider a species "new" or "already described as ...", and dried herbar specimen are mostly brown without any significant colors. So there should be morphologic characteristics to define a species, so that the characteristics become visible in the dried specimen (and not only in a color photo).

JESSE if you have some problem with vallisneriifolia in your country , put them to a more high temperature in winter ( example in a cold greenhouse) here( LE MANS) with -5°c outdoor I have no problem .

Oh, oh, I just purchased several flowering size winter buds of P. vallisneriifolia some weeks ago after I found, that in my climate I could grow one small gemmae to a flowering plant within two years. Winter temps go down to -15°C/5°F regularly each year. I have no greenhouse, so hardy Pinguicula must be really hardy, at least to -15°C/5°F or even a bit more frost during winter.

Can you recommend other Pinguicula that do better in cold winters than P. vallisneriifolia? What about P. nevadensis?

I'd like to try serveral more hardy Pinguicula species in my garden.
But they really must be able to withstand heavy frost without using a greenhouse.
As I obtained some new Pinguicula winter buds, I'll see what will survive the next winter. Hopefully all or at least most of them. In four months from now I will know more.
 
  • #28
suite

Bonjour JESSE

As I have heard even in the small Oregon/California border region there are several populations of P. macroceras ssp. nortensis that look somewhat different in their flowers. Perhaps someone who has visited different populations in situ and taken photos can show pictures showing the different flowers of different populations.

Anybody has P. macroceras ssp. nortensis in cultivation where the flowers look very different from my plants?


still much work to do on these species macroceras

A few years ago I had this clone

macro.JPG


since then I 'am looking for an others without sucess

I' am looking for also this Japanese form

musitori.jpg


it is virtually impossible in a herbarium to return the correct color (unless you include the flower in the epoxy)
as often it is only for outline morphological and again ?

often the form or variety notion it a question of color.

you can try the vallisneriifolia outdoor , here to LE MANS it is OK .

Like I tell you vallisneriifolia is a calcareous species .

may be you can try in an acid soil : villosa(difficult to LE MANS)-variegata(difficult to LE MANS)-corsica-algida( difficult to find))-nevadensis(difficult to LE MANS) -vulgaris f albida and f bicolor

in a calcareous soil or a unspecified soil a lot of others .

jeff
 
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