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Thread: Cold hardy Pinguicula: winter buds and gemmae pics

  1. #17
    I am a CPaholic... DJ57's Avatar
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    I think gemmae are viable only for a short time after harvesting and don't store well, the sooner they get planted the better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ57 View Post
    With the roots dying back naturally in winter, I don't have to worry about disturbing the root system like I did before.
    "Disturbing the root" can really become a problem with cold-temperate Pinguicula - when repotting while they HAVE living roots during their growing cycle. Planting is absolutely no problem when the winter is over, when they are in winter buds and have only dead roots (hibernacle) or no roots (gemmae) and will start their next growing cycle. But when disturbing the roots during the growing cycle while they are in leaves, the plants may go straight ahead into the hibernacle within just four weeks after root disturbance, even during summer.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ57 View Post
    What exactly are your bog conditions throughout the year for your cold-hardy pings? Light, temps throughout the year, moisture level, etc. Since mine do not seem to be producing gemmae now, perhaps I need to tweek my bog conditions for them thoughout this growing season if possible. My bog is large, approximately 64 square feet with lots of sarrs plus other, so plenty of room to experiment with what I can control. There is a picture of my bog in the TF forum gallery, link in my signature line below.
    You can look up the climate table of my area on the Internet:
    Temps in F: http://www.worldweather.org/016/c00055f.htm#climate
    Temps in C: http://www.worldweather.org/016/c00055.htm#climate
    For winter time, the climate table doesn't tell the real truth, as the weather conditions may change dramatically during winter every two weeks or so. In winter we may have mild temperatures above freezing point with rain. We may have moderate freezing with lot of snow. Or we may have Siberian cold without snow. During one winter, we may have more or less of different weather conditions and it may change several times, but the climate table mixes that all into averages. I have my cold-temperate Pinguicula in mini-bogs (90 litres, 24 gallons) which are dug in ground-even.


    Quote Originally Posted by Not a Number View Post
    Interesting, I did not know these produce gemmae. It doesn't seem like many people have these in cultivation. Even an old dog learns something new now and then.

    I just took my P. macroceras out of the refrigerator. Only one of the 3 surviving seedlings made an obvious winter bud. The rest disappeared.
    I think it is very hard to provide complete growing cycles through the year by providing artificial conditions for cold-temperate Pinguicula in an area where the temperatures are too warm. Rising and falling temperatures through the year. Longer and shorter daytimes through the year. Prevent too much heat in summer. Periods of freezing during winter. That's all hard to simulate if your climate is different from what the plants are used to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsmanshorn View Post
    I keep hoping to see cold-temperate ping gemmae on ebay but never do. I wonder why? I know they are not grown commonly in the states but they do seem to be more commonly grown in Europe. Don't the gemmae travel well?
    Time is limited, but hibernacles and gemmae travel very well, while it is cold outside early in the year. If gemmae is wrapped in wet paper towel and it is on the postal travel for more than seven days, the gemmae may start to attach themselves to the paper towel with freshly grown roots, so the first roots of the gemmae may be stripped off when removing the gemmae from the paper towel they are wrapped into. But that's no big problem.

    Big letters to USA travel about 5-6 days normally, add two days for a weekend, two days for customs and two days for phytosanitary importation, that's 12 days in total. Should be possible. Theoretically.

    The main problem with international trade is: Gemmae are no seeds for the customs declaration, but they are living plants. Living plants need a phytosanitary certificate for international trading. The price for a phytosanitary certificate may be higher than the value of the buds and gemmae.

    And with trade into the USA there is another big problem with plant imports by private persons: US customs, Border Control, FBI, CIA, Homeland Security, USDA-APHIS, and whoever may be involved have forced a law, that only (I think) max. 12 plants are legal for a private, noncommercial import into the USA. Every import of more than 12 plants is declared a "commercial import" by law. Commercial importers need an import permit as a commercial plant importing company. So you must be a commercial plant importing company or you must have the same permits and follow the same rules and regulations as such a company to import 13+ gemmae of Pinguicula into the USA. Might be pretty uninteresting for international eBay sellers to offer gemmae at eBay and provide phytosanitary certificates for only a few commercial plant importing companies that have all the permits.

    P. macroceras and P. vulgaris are native in the US, so it should be possible to get them from within the US.

    And P. grandiflora sets many seeds and can (relatively) easily be propagated from seeds. I think seed importation requires much less paperwork than plant importation, as you in the US "only" need the Small Lots of Seed permit to stay legal (while I in Europe may import most seeds from all over the world except the agricultural species without any permit).

  3. #19
    Hello, I must be going... Not a Number's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ57 View Post
    From seed, wow. Very nice. Did you get seed from your own plants?
    They were field collected. This species is sensitive to inbreeding depression so in order to try to avoid that I'd need a minimum of 4 genetically different plants to try to establish a healthy population.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse View Post
    I think it is very hard to provide complete growing cycles through the year by providing artificial conditions for cold-temperate Pinguicula in an area where the temperatures are too warm. Rising and falling temperatures through the year. Longer and shorter daytimes through the year. Prevent too much heat in summer. Periods of freezing during winter. That's all hard to simulate if your climate is different from what the plants are used to.
    Well that's the whole trick with growing living things is to provide as close an environment as possible as to what they are adapted to live in. The solutions can be out of reach financially as well as technologically. Sadly in most cases this doesn't keep people from trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse View Post
    The main problem with international trade is: Gemmae are no seeds for the customs declaration, but they are living plants. Living plants need a phytosanitary certificate for international trading. The price for a phytosanitary certificate may be higher than the value of the buds and gemmae.

    And with trade into the USA there is another big problem with plant imports by private persons: US customs, Border Control, FBI, CIA, Homeland Security, USDA-APHIS, and whoever may be involved have forced a law, that only (I think) max. 12 plants are legal for a private, noncommercial import into the USA. Every import of more than 12 plants is declared a "commercial import" by law. Commercial importers need an import permit as a commercial plant importing company. So you must be a commercial plant importing company or you must have the same permits and follow the same rules and regulations as such a company to import 13+ gemmae of Pinguicula into the USA. Might be pretty uninteresting for international eBay sellers to offer gemmae at eBay and provide phytosanitary certificates for only a few commercial plant importing companies that have all the permits.
    Correct on all counts. 12 or less plants require a phytosanitary certificate as do seeds not qualifying as Small Seed Lots (in which case a import permit is required but not a phytosanitary certificate). Lots of 13 or greater require phytosanitary certificate and import permit. Seeds are seed. Anything capable of propagation requires a phytosanitary certificate this includes plants, cuttings, tubers, gemmae, pollen, tissue cultures and seeds (except small seed lots).

    It is a sad state of affairs when citizens of other countries know the Custom and Agriculture laws of the US better than US citizens. Phytosanitary certificates can cost over $200 USD and some countries like Brazil require a certificate for each taxon shipped.
    Grand Hotel... always the same. People come, people go. Nothing ever happens.

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    This is my P. corsica. I have about 4 mature plants, and alst fall they gave me about 30-40 gemmae each! I have more than I know what to do with. The reason I like temperate pings is 1) they have great flowers compared to other CP's, 2) very easy to propagate, especially in temperate areas. My pings are just breaking dormancy, I'll post some pictures when they start flowering (assuming they will :P )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a Number View Post
    Well that's the whole trick with growing living things is to provide as close an environment as possible as to what they are adapted to live in. The solutions can be out of reach financially as well as technologically. Sadly in most cases this doesn't keep people from trying.
    Sometimes things go wrong, if you try something.
    Sometimes things go well and you are pushing the limits.
    Sometimes things may go well for some time, but then fail.
    Temperate Pinguicula are always good for a positive or a negative surprise.

    So I want to show also this picture of a P. macroceras ssp. nortensis, hibernacle and gemmae, picture taken these days:


    That looks pretty much different from the first picture I showed in this thread, here it is again for comparison:


    Same species, same mother plant, cultivated in the same location only 2 yards away from each other, same substrate, same climate and same weather, both pictures taken these days. On one picture the flowering size bud is dead with only a few gemmae living, on the other picture the hibernacle is living and strong and with a lot of gemmae. So you might ask: What's the difference? I can tell you: Potted cultivation (dead hibernacle in a free-standing pot) vs. bog cultivation (everything well in a 90 litre / 24 gallon mini-bog dug in ground-even).

    I never thought the difference can be so big.
    Two growing seasons and two winters everything went fine with potted cultivation.
    But not always all good things come in threes.
    The third winter it happened to the potted hibernacles that they died, due to extraordinary weather conditions in my location in early February.

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    I think potted cultivation is a bit tough for these plants. I've tried a few times with little success. I think potted plants don't get the stable conditions that mini-bogs can provide, but it's just my idea.

    That's too bad about your plant, but then with so many other ones, losing one isn't too bad, at least that's what I think :P

    Anyone have any pings sending up flowers yet? I'm excited to see some!

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    suite

    Bonjour

    P.macroceras do not like the negative value of temperature as we had here in europe .

    P.alpina make a hibernaculae in winter but no buds ,some others temperate make no hibernacula and no buds like the complex crystallina ,lusitanica and may be villosa.

    some others temperate pinguicula keep in winter their root or their rhizom.

    for temperate ping you have 3 substrate : acid, calcareous and undifferencitiated , all the grandiflora does not grow in an acid substrate see here link click on habitats

    P.vulgaris grow in a undifferencitied substrate acid or calcareous.

    for me you have 5 type of pinguicula in the world see here link
    use the google modul for the translation


    jeff

  8. #24
    jesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quatchi View Post
    This is my P. corsica. I have about 4 mature plants, and alst fall they gave me about 30-40 gemmae each!
    Nice species and much gemmae. It looks like you will have much more mature plants next year!

    I don't have them as I think that P. corsica might not be fully winter hardy in my climate. They are of origin very much south in Europe, so they should withstand higher temperatures in summer and need less frost during winter than I have here in Northern Germany. Might be interesting for people that live in cold areas and have a greenhouse or in areas for outdoor cultivation where winters bring only little freeze.

    Quote Originally Posted by quatchi View Post
    I think potted cultivation is a bit tough for these plants. I've tried a few times with little success. I think potted plants don't get the stable conditions that mini-bogs can provide, but it's just my idea.
    Bog cultivation always showed better result for my cold-temperate Pings, but I never lost so many potted hibernacles as during this winter.

    Quote Originally Posted by quatchi View Post
    That's too bad about your plant, but then with so many other ones, losing one isn't too bad, at least that's what I think
    I lost 14 flowering size hibernacles of P. macroceras. The pot was not a small one.
    But on the other side I have more than 50 flowering size in my mini-bog.

    Quote Originally Posted by quatchi View Post
    Anyone have any pings sending up flowers yet? I'm excited to see some!
    In my area P. macroceras or maybe P. alpina is the first flowering species of the year, perhaps end of April, depending on weather conditions. Jeff from France should have his plants much earlier flowering.


    Quote Originally Posted by jeff 2 View Post
    P.macroceras do not like the negative value of temperature as we had here in europe.
    I think there must be different forms in circulation named P. macroceras ssp. nortensis. Some from northern California and some from Oregon. Mine are of origin in Oregon.

    My P. macroceras get -15C / 5F each year and some years also -18C / 0F. That's normally no problem, even for potted plants. But this year the winter was very mild until suddenly, at the end of January, the temperature dropped from always mild until then to sharp frost without snow cover within just 48 hours. The sharp temperature drop and frost was to much for potted P. macroceras and potted P. grandiflora hibernacles.

    Fortunately I have the mini-bogs. Even this extraordinary late winter, which came very late and very quickly as not seen the last 100 years, was fine for the Ping hibernacles in the mini-bogs.

    Today I finished harvesting, planting and sowing of gemmae and replanting the hibernacula of my cold-temperate Pinguicula species (and a few hybrids). That takes me longer each year as my amout of plants is growing each year.

    I'm looking forward to the flowering season and I should see some flowers of new species and hybrids this year, that have now reached flowering size for the first time. Time will show.

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