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Thread: Just got my butterwort

  1. #17

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    Smile

    [edit 8/24/2002 11:39 AM ]

    Quote
    After a few minutes, I wondered, why are so many flowering, but none are done flowering? After looking around, I noticed at least 15 cut flower stalks, and footprints leading off the boardwalk into the bog mat (two sets, at least). I don't think many plants were taken, but it seems someone here in New York has a very large collection of illegally gathered S. purpurea ssp. purpurea seeds.[/QUOTE]

    Keep in mind that there are groups and agencies that obtain permits to collect seeds from bogs. They then use the new plants to re-establish decreasing populations at that bog or other bogs. A college could be doing research on the plants and received a permit to collect some seeds from the wild.

    Still, other places will issue a permit for people to come in an collect a small amount of seeds. The idea is to allow people to grow the plants and then give some back to the area.

    [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img]

    Nick
    Nick

    Careful where you crawl, it might be a trap!

    http://www.carnivorium.com
    http://www.buckeyecarnivores.com

  2. #18

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    There is a huge difference between having a permit to collect seeds, and offering 50 cents per seed pod and asking for a bushel of them. Also there is no need for any hobbiest to collect any of this seed, it is widely available from other growers for the asking, or from nurseries at a modest price.

    I am all for re-establishing Sarracenia populations, but I say let these populations be! Then there will be no need to re-establish them. There are respectable research centers that will cooperate with any sincere efforts to re-establish populations.

    There is however nothing that will justify the commercial sale of field collected material to me. I don't care if someone has a piece of legal paper saying it is alright to do so. It is not alright.

    Yes, field collected material is necessary for research, but most researchers with university affiliations also have both the knowledge and sensitivity to do this in a proper manner.

    My point is that it is not acceptable to collect field material for profit, period. Of anything, no matter how common. These organic beings have every right to their place on Earth, and we are in no way superior to them as a species! As far as private collection for personal collections, it depends on the populations. There is no harm in harvesting a little Drosera seed, or a bit of Utricularia, IF the populations are strong. Both these genera are fast growing and prolific in reproduction. Sarracenia on the other hand is a slow growing species, and the seed percentage of germination and success of individual seedlings is not high. Populations of Sarracenia can't take the pressure.
    "Grow More, Share More"

  3. #19

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    This was what I was replying to. I should have put in a quote.

    Quote
    After a few minutes, I wondered, why are so many flowering, but none are done flowering? After looking around, I noticed at least 15 cut flower stalks, and footprints leading off the boardwalk into the bog mat (two sets, at least). I don't think many plants were taken, but it seems someone here in New York has a very large collection of illegally gathered S. purpurea ssp. purpurea seeds.[/QUOTE]



    Quote
    Yes, field collected material is necessary for research, but most researchers with university affiliations also have both the knowledge and sensitivity to do this in a proper manner.
    [/QUOTE]

    This would still leave footprints and cut flower stalks.

    Since PP came up, I have bought from them in the past. All plants arrived in good bare root condition. It is hard for me to believe that someone can wild collect Cephalotus and Cobra plants in a weeks period, from the wild, and ship them with VFTs, Sundews, and Butterworts in the same package.

    As for the size of his Butterwort being small, check out the companies website and read the shipping information. Price does not reflect size of the plants, except on the VFT bulbs. The picture of the Butterwort on the website shows what I believe is a very small plant.

    I am not for collecting in the wild for profit or for personal enjoyment. I am just trying to point out that some people don't understand the entire story behind footprints in the bogs. If a forest ranger has to go to a area for inspection, collection, etc. they will leave footprints and other signs they had been there. Areas are maintained by local and national government organizations. Seeds are an easy way to protect the plants in the area by leaving them to grow, while being able to produce a lot of new plants that can be re-established in that area or in an area that has become threatend.

    If these organizations buy seeds from other sources, the local collonies of plants will become mixed with species that are not true to the genetics of the local plants. Keeping things as natural as possible would mean cultivating locally obained seed. Seeds from other areas are not local.

    PP might have field collected in the past, I cannot say as I have never been offered by them to do so, or had any indication they did so with my order.

    My dad once said...
    "When I was a kid they showed people tracking bears on TV. When they found the bear, they used a machine gun to kill it. This was a show about wildlife and marketed to youngsters. Times have changed."
    That was 35-40 years ago.
    Nick

    Careful where you crawl, it might be a trap!

    http://www.carnivorium.com
    http://www.buckeyecarnivores.com

  4. #20
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    If you support a place where you know 'some' things maybe obtained from the wild, then you are allowing that place to buy other things.

    The point is, some things will keep the place in business and allow the continued harvesting from the wild.

    I am by no means suggesting anyone is doing anything. I am merely stating things from a stand point of a business.

    We know no one here in the states can 'poach' Cephalotus. But funds from other plants can be used to obtain Cephalotus.

    -----

    To me it is like buying CP's from Home Depot and Lowe's. As long as we continue to throw our money at places that will not treat these plants with the respect that they deserve....

    We are promoting the cotinued poaching and destruction of these plants.

    It is a sad truth when you put it into perspective.


    So what are we to do?

    Stop buying from places that you feel has these reputations. Ask questions. You know the answers. Talk to someone on the phone about their plants that they carry. You can find out many things from someone from a phone call.

    If you know that a company will continue to buy large amounts of CP's to just let them dry out and die.....then do it. It is their money. They will eventually ( we hope ) get the point and quit carrying the plants ( or better yet, learn to take care of them ).

    I cannot tell you how many plants I have gone out and saved. I MAKE MY OWN [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img] I have no need to go buy some from a K-mart or Home Depot. But I do. The sad part is that others that have yet to truly discover the awesome nature of these plants, will have such a distaste for them because of what they obtain from places that:
    1) care not for the plant, but for the $
    2) offer no help with dealing with the plant
    3) give instructions that will kill the plant
    4) place them out in front so every kid will beg his mom for one. Only to have it die, never to try to grow one again
    5) make demands on other plants and thus destroy them ( tuberous sundews? )

    Enough of my babble. I can go on and on. I know that we will all do what we feel is right. Just remember that we have this time to keep things going and to try and get others to help along the way.

  5. #21

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    Interesting that this topic comes up... because I have a concern for a thought that I had (call this my confession)

    We were out in East Texas... a few weeks ago with a couple of people from our county parks and wildlife system... who, I might add... have received permits to collect from certain areas.

    Anyway, we learned of an area that was on the drawing boards to be mowed down for a highway expansion... In the line of the higway was a ton of S. alatathe and some sundews.... that I didn't even really look at ( I think butterworts too).

    So... I was sitting there... wondering what someone could do to help save the population... and keep it all from being totally destroyed.

    So the idea came up... to have an organized collection ... and attempt to get permits for such activity.

    I have a VERY strong ethical issue with pulling anything from the wild... ANYTHING, not to mention CPs. I was even having a problem pulling passion vines from behind my house, when they were about to level the field for new homes... but I did it anyway, in an effort to save them =-\

    Anyway... so... is an organized collection with a permit a good idea? Is there an ethical issue with doing such a thing? I have mixed feelings... I mean, I'd hate to have the placed mowed down for a new highway... but I'd also hate to pull plants, period.

    Now... we wouldn't sell the stock if we did this... we'd put it in our own bog... and maybe try to transplant it elsewhere.. where other similar plans were growing... But Still it *IS* field collected.

    So where's the line... where do we draw a line between saving plants and selfishly raping the land... Though I'd love these wild plants in a man made bog... I'd also just assume leave them in their natural habitat.... but if the habitat is destroyed, we have lost all the way around =(

    I'm contemplating this .... and have thought about it a few times since the visit to East Texas... If I had the time and energy, I'd be on the phone Monday with the TX dept of transportation who owns the land.... and see what permission is required since the plants aren't protected specifically.

    Any thoughts, opinions, etc would be much appreciated [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img] At the very least, it will guide me in drawing the line... for myself morally and ethically!



    Phillip J. Crane
    Austin, TX

  6. #22

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    Save as many as you can. Plants cannot move to get out of the way. When the government buys homes to be torn down for highway construction, the residents are able to move out and find new homes. Plants cannot do this.

    The S. flava will be growing nicely, get moved down, try to send up new pitcher only to be covered with black top.

    The difference between field collecting and saving a population is simple. Field collecting is taking from the wild, saving a population is saving the wild and allowing the population to find a new home. Without collecting these plants and moving them to a new home, they will be lost forever. There is nothing wrong with transplanting if it is to save population from extinction.

    Something else to try. Get as much community support to get the highway blocked or redirected. Find out as much history on the area, the wildlife in the area and any impact on the environment from the destruction of the bog. Take pictures, show the natural beauty of the place. Make people want to save the area. Make them want to move the highway.

    Bogs help prevent flooding as they soak up excess rain water.

    If all you can do is save a few plants, take pictures of the habitat that was destroyed, record its history, the wildlife that grows there. Don't let the area be forgotten.

    Check out this website: Places we protect
    Nick

    Careful where you crawl, it might be a trap!

    http://www.carnivorium.com
    http://www.buckeyecarnivores.com

  7. #23

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    Phillip,
    If you remove the plants now into a man-made bog, you may be able to convince the Texas DOT to set aside a section of land near the highway to be returned to its natural sate and reintroduce the plants. You may also get some help from the Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center. Here is a link Lady Bird Wildflower Center
    Marjorie

  8. #24
    It's been one of dem days BigCarnivourKid's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Hi all,

    I like your suggestion nick & magore.

    Phil I think that if you do nothing you will eventually be kicking yourself because those plants are gone. Permanantly. Their genetic material lost never to be replaced. If on the other hand they are moved to another bog, man made or otherwise, they will continue to contribute to the genetic diversity of the species and may eventually be used to reintroduce S. flava to places where they have disappeared.
    ---Steve Allinger---

    How come chicken fingers are bigger than buffalo wings?

    My Grow List

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