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Sarr. Oreophila seeds for possible trade

I have about 75 Sarr. Oreophila seeds for trade. I'd have to count them to be sure. They are open pollination, so they are more than likely hybrids. I purchased these from a place in Oregon. I have stored them in the fridge, and the are harvested from October 2009. Please let me know if you have anything you could offer up in trade. I am not looking for other seeds except perhaps highland or hybrid Nep. seeds. All offers considered. I am really looking for a highland Nep. Truncata or Ping. Moranensis if you have an extra, but that isn't much of a fair trade.
 
I'd be sure it not pure S. oreophila seeds, not sure if it matters if it would be a cross. This plant is on Cities list. It has very strict laws about trading plants or seeds.
I had the same trouble when I divided my S. oreophila plants. I would have to gift them and not even be able to ask for shipping even.

http://www.sarracenia.com/faq/faq4310.html
 
It's the ESA that regulate trade within the US. You are not allowed to trade/sell species listed as endangered across state lines (without proper permits). You may give them away for free however. You can not ask for reimbursement of shipping/postage either if they go across state lines. In state you can do whatever you want with them.
 
I know all about CITES and the regulations. I purchased these seeds from an extremely well known nursery in Northwest Oregon. They are sold as hybrids because they are open pollination. I will contact them and see what their explanation is. I know people make mistakes, but they are very responsible, and abide by the law. I will post an answer when I receive one.

It's the ESA that regulate trade within the US. You are not allowed to trade/sell species listed as endangered across state lines (without proper permits). You may give them away for free however. You can not ask for reimbursement of shipping/postage either if they go across state lines. In state you can do whatever you want with them.
 
I'm pretty sure I know the nursery you are referring to. They have the permits to sell / trade this plant over state lines.

I did not research it that much, but looked like it was around $100.00 a year to obtain the permits to sell / trade these plants over state lines.
 
The response I have received from the nursery:

"They're off base. It's perfectly legal to sell and distribute seeds of plants on CITES. The protection only covers plants, not seeds. We sell seeds of this species on our website. Do an online search for more information about CITES. As far as I'm concerned, you're in the clear."
 
It sounds legit enough, but I can't imagine why CITES would allow seed distribution of plants on their list. It just seems like a gaping hole, since many people poach seeds as well. "Hey guys, you can rip the plants out of the ground and sell the seeds, but you absolutely can NOT. SELL. THE PLANT." If the plant is nursery grow in the first place, the seeds would be going to people who would propagate them and keep them out of extinction, so why limit that? ??? (Though I guess being able to ship them without reimbursement is enough for the good-hearted people...)

The trade rule seems strange. You could easily, openly legitly "give away" the plant to someone without being reimbursed for shipping, and then THEY could easily "give away" a plant that you wanted as a "thank-you". Anyone who really wanted to get something for a cites plant or seeds looks like they could do so if they know the other person.
 
The last thing I wanna do is open a thread debating CITES laws and regs. We all know where they end up going. I am going off of what I understand the law to be and what the nursery who sold me the seeds told me.
 
Seems that we are still having a misunderstanding on which document pertains to dealing with endangered species WITHIN the US. So I will try and explain it again.

CITES deals with transport of endangered species across international borders. If the question is can you trade/sell CITES listed plants or seed without crossing an international border the answer is YES. CITES has NOTHING to do with Sarr. Oreophila within the US.

The issue here is that you are dealing with a plant listed on the Endangered Species Act (ESA) as endangered.
SO from Section 3 of the ESA
"(2) The term “commercial activity” means all activities of industry and trade, including, but not limited to, the buying or selling of commodities and activities conducted for the purpose of facilitating such buying and selling: Provided, however, That it does not include exhibition of commodities by museums or similar cultural or historical organizations.
"(14) The term “plant” mean"s any member of the plant kingdom, including seeds, roots and other parts thereof."

Here is Section 9 in it's entirety for your reading perusal.. enjoy
"PROHIBITED ACTS
SEC. 9.

(a) GENERAL.—(1) Except as provided in sections 6(g)(2) and 10 of this Act, with respect to any endangered species of fish or wildlife listed pursuant to section 4 of this Act it is unlawful for any person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States to— (A) import any such species into, or export any such species from the United States; (B) take any such species within the United States or the territorial sea of the United States; (C) take any such species upon the high seas; (D) possess, sell, deliver, carry, transport, or ship, by any means whatsoever, any such species taken in violation of subparagraphs (B) and (C); (E) deliver, receive, carry, transport, or ship in interstate or foreign commerce, by any means whatsoever and in the course of a commercial activity, any such species; (F) sell or offer for sale in interstate or foreign commerce any such species; or (G) violate any regulation pertaining to such species or to any threatened species of fish or wildlife listed pursuant to section 4 of this Act and promulgated by the Secretary pursuant to authority provided by this Act. (2) Except as provided in sections 6(g)(2) and 10 of this Act, with respect to any endangered species of plants listed pursuant to section 4 of this Act, it is unlawful for any person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States to— (A) import any such species into, or export any such species from, the United States; (B) remove and reduce to possession any such species from areas under Federal jurisdiction; maliciously damage or destroy any such species on any such area; or remove, cut, dig up, or damage or destroy any such species on any other area in knowing violation of any law or regulation of any State or in the course of any violation of a State criminal trespass law;(C) deliver, receive, carry, transport, or ship in interstate or foreign commerce, by any means whatsoever and in the course of a commercial activity, any such species; (D) sell or offer for sale in interstate or foreign commerce any such species; or (E) violate any regulation pertaining to such species or to any threatened species of plants listed pursuant to section 4 of this Act and promulgated by the Secretary pursuant to authority provided by this Act.

(b)(1) SPECIES HELD IN CAPTIVITY OR CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT.—The provisions of subsections (a)(1)(A) and (a)(1)(G) of this section shall not apply to any fish or wildlife which was held in captivity or in a controlled environment on (A) December 28, 1973, or (B) the date of the publication in the Federal Register of a final regulation adding such fish or wildlife species to any list published pursuant to subsection (c) of section 4 of this Act: Provided, That such holding and any subsequent holding or use of the fish or wildlife was not in the course of a commercial activity. With respect to any act prohibited by subsections (a)(1)(A) and (a)(1)(G) of this section which occurs after a period of 180 days from (i) December 28, 1973, or (ii) the date of publication in the Federal Register of a final regulation adding such fish or wildlife species to any list published pursuant to subsection (c) of section 4 of this Act, there shall be a rebuttable presumption that the fish or wildlife involved in such act is not entitled to the exemption contained in this subsection. (2)(A) The provisions of subsection (a)(1) shall not apply to— (i) any raptor legally held in captivity or in a controlled environment on the effective date of the Endangered Species Act Amendments of 1978; or (ii) any progeny of any raptor described in clause (i); until such time as any such raptor or progeny is intentionally returned to a wild state. (B) Any person holding any raptor or progeny described in subparagraph (A) must be able to demonstrate that the raptor or progeny does, in fact, qualify under the provisions of this paragraph, and shall maintain and submit to the Secretary, on request, such inventories, documentation, and records as the Secretary may by regulation require as being reasonably appropriate to carry out the purposes of this paragraph. Such requirements shall not unnecessarily duplicate the requirements of other rules and regulations promulgated by the Secretary.

(c) VIOLATION OF CONVENTION.—(1) It is unlawful for any person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States to engage in any trade in any specimens contrary to the provisions of the Convention, or to possess any specimens traded contrary to the provisions of the Convention, including the definitions of terms in article I thereof. (2) Any importation into the United States of fish or wildlife shall, if — (A) such fish or wildlife is not an endangered species listed pursuant to section 4 of this Act but is listed in Appendix II to the Convention, (B) the taking and exportation of such fish or wildlife is not contrary to the provisions of the Convention and all other applicable requirements of the Convention have been satisfied, (C) the applicable requirements of subsections (d), (e), and (f) of this section have been satisfied, and (D) such importation is not made in the course of a commercial activity, be presumed to be an importation not in violation of any provision of this Act or any regulation issued pursuant to this Act.

(d) IMPORTS AND EXPORTS.—(1) IN GENERAL.—It is unlawful for any person, without first having obtained permission from the Secretary, to engage in business— (A) as an importer or exporter of fish or wildlife (other than shellfish and fishery products which (i) are not listed pursuant to section 4 of this Act as endangered species or threatened species, and (ii) are imported for purposes of human or animal consumption or taken in waters under the jurisdiction of the United States or on the high seas for recreational purposes) or plants; or (B) as an importer or exporter of any amount of raw or worked African elephant ivory. (2) REQUIREMENTS.—Any person required to obtain permission under paragraph (1) of this subsection shall— (A) keep such records as will fully and correctly disclose each importation or exportation of fish, wildlife, plants, or African elephant ivory made by him and the subsequent disposition made by him with respect to such fish, wildlife, plants, or ivory; (B) at all reasonable times upon notice by a duly authorized representative of the Secretary, afford such representative access to his place of business, an opportunity to examine his inventory of imported fish, wildlife, plants, or African elephant ivory and the records required to be kept under subparagraph (A) of this paragraph, and to copy such records; and (C) file such reports as the Secretary may require. (3) REGULATIONS.—The Secretary shall prescribe such regulations as are necessary and appropriate to carry out the purposes of this subsection.(4) RESTRICTION ON CONSIDERATION OF VALUE OR AMOUNT OF AFRICAN ELEPHANT IVORY IMPORTED OR EXPORTED.—In granting permission under this subsection for importation or exportation of African elephant ivory, the Secretary shall not vary the requirements for obtaining such permission on the basis of the value or amount of ivory imported or exported under such permission.

(e) REPORTS.—It is unlawful for any person importing or exporting fish or wildlife (other than shellfish and fishery products which (1) are not listed pursuant to section 4 of this Act as endangered or threatened species, and (2) are imported for purposes of human or animal consumption or taken in waters under the jurisdiction of the United States or on the high seas for recreational purposes) or plants to fail to file any declaration or report as the Secretary deems necessary to facilitate enforcement of this Act or to meet the obligations of the Convention.

(f) DESIGNATION OF PORTS.— (1) It is unlawful for any person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States to import into or export from the United States any fish or wildlife (other than shellfish and fishery products which (A) are not listed pursuant to section 4 of this Act as endangered species or threatened species, and (B) are imported for purposes of human or animal consumption or taken in waters under the jurisdiction of the United States or on the high seas for recreational purposes) or plants, except at a port or ports designated by the Secretary of the Interior. For the purpose of facilitating enforcement of this Act and reducing the costs thereof, the Secretary of the Interior, with approval of the Secretary of the Treasury and after notice and opportunity for public hearing, may, by regulation, designate ports and change such designations. The Secretary of the Interior, under such terms and conditions as he may prescribe, may permit the importation or exportation at nondesignated ports in the interest of the health or safety of the fish or wildlife or plants, or for otherreasons if, in his discretion, he deems it appropriate and consistent with the purpose of this subsection. (2) Any port designated by the Secretary of the Interior under the authority of section 4(d) of the Act of December 5, 1969 (16 U.S.C. 666cc-4(d)), shall, if such designation is in effect on the day before the date of the enactment of this Act, be deemed to be a port designated by the Secretary under paragraph (1) of this subsection until such time as the Secretary otherwise provides.

(g) VIOLATIONS.—It is unlawful for any person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States to attempt to commit, solicit another to commit, or cause to be committed, any offense defined in this section."

---------- Post added at 08:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ----------

So basically it boils down to the following;

Without permits to engage in commercial activity of endangered species you can give them away if they will be transported across state lines. You may not receive ANYTHING in return as that is seen as commerical activity. Note the part where it says Interstate transport. Within your home state you can trade/sell .. do whatever you want with them.

---------- Post added at 08:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 PM ----------

Oh shoot.. I meant to address this as well. The fact that they are open pollinated doesn't matter. The seed is originating from a Sarr. oreophila plant which makes them Sarr. oreophila seed as far as USFW is concerned.
 
  • #11
How bout I go one step further and ask to delete the thread as per rule #6?
 
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