Red LFS

[mass]

I have about 1.5 - 2 gallons of fresh, live, red sphagnum from the bog down the street left over after my most recent trade. Yes, I had permission to be on my high school principle's property to collect it. And yes, this is indeed the same LFS that has been producing all of the D.rotundifolia for me.
I am open to all offers..

Some of the D.rotundifolia and moss..

 

[mass]

 

[Nepenthes101]

I could use some of that for my Edwardsiana. What are you looking to trade? I'm making seeds of the forked sundews at the moment.

 

[mass]

I gotta chill-ax on the dews for a moment until I can figure out how to get my other tank cooled. I had to move them all into my Ceph tank, which is packed full with cephs, dews, and sown seeds that you sent me. lol
I wouldn't mind some nep sprouts or some pings..

 

[Nepenthes101]

I do have pings that I may be able to send. The nep sprouts wont be ready for quite a while though.

 

[chezilla]

PM'd

 

[mass]

I posted here first, so you guys get first dibs. But you better settle our trades quickly, as people are offering cash on the other forums.

 

[Sig]

I posted here first, so you guys get first dibs. But you better settle our trades quickly, as people are offering cash on the other forums.

Cash for wild collected plants? Now that's just wrong..

 

[mass]

Guess that's just a matter of opinion.. I make $100 a day on my morel sales. I get store credit at my local pet shop for dart frog moss. And now this.. I'm disabled and can't work so I have found ways to make money off of mother Earth. Call me naughty, or call me native American. At least I'm not ripping CP's out of the ground.

 

[mobile]

Cash for wild collected plants? Now that's just wrong..

Try telling the dozens of sellers on eBay or the thousands of garden centres and pet stores that sell Sphagnum moss.

 

[Sig]

Try telling the dozens of sellers on eBay or the thousands of garden centres and pet stores that sell Sphagnum moss.

Though it's certainly not as big of an offense taking sphagnum rather than the actual carnivorous plants and selling them, Those are big companies that buy huge plots of land and have nothing more on their minds than making money. I think that's a different situation than a non-commercial grower who knows all about bog conservation and the issues going on.

I think there isn't a problem with the occasional grower collecting some sphagnum or trading it. Even auctioning it off like Ozzy did was for a good cause. But I dislike the idea of someone in the hobby collecting the hard work of nature and making a profit off of it (Morels, their goal of sporing being done, is a different story.) I feel like that is starting to cross the line from someone doing a recreational hobby and someone who feels the whole thing is a moneymaking scheme.

Nothing against you, and this whole thing itself isn't that big of a deal, but if you have a choice, trade, don't sell.

 

[Nepenthes101]

Hi Mass. Are you wanting any of my Pings for some red Live sphag? I'm also getting 2 seed grown Nepenthes Dubias besides the Edwardsiana that would love the Red Live sphag.

 

[Chris_Himself]

The amount of LFS that Mass is taking does not even compare to the amount that birds and racoons dig up for nesting material.

Unless Mass is shipping garbage bags out to people like Peter Pietropaulo used to do, he's not doing anything other than sustaining his hobby by living off the land.

Morels are going to be eaten by bears and squirrels anyways, I'm sure he's not doing any harm. Although you should share the wealth man, I cant afford them shizz!

 

[mass]

Although this is a riveting discussion, is my trade thread really the place for it?

Hi Mass. Are you wanting any of my Pings for some red Live sphag? I'm also getting 2 seed grown Nepenthes Dubias besides the Edwardsiana that would love the Red Live sphag.

You can definitely send me N.dubias to put in the sphag!! That's so much better than me sending the moss to you.


Mike, I made sure to set some aside for you before I did anything. I knew you wanted it.. so you, limeslide, chezilla, and The Griffin have your own portions on hold.

 

[Timmy]

What about more typical pullings for like 6 red lfs?

---------- Post added at 06:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:12 PM ----------

That is what i'm like on my typical pullings thread!

 

[Ozzy]

First of all, I want to state that rules and laws regarding collections of plant material are different from state to state.

In NC where I live the rule is that if you own the land you can collect, sell, give away, or pretty much do whatever you want with any plant. The state recognizes any plant as property of the property owner. You can take plants off another's property only if you possess written permission form the land owner while collecting and transporting the plants.

Now I have sphagnum moss and sundews growing on my property. I can legally rip all of them out of the ground and sell every one of them, and still not have broken any laws. I can't morally do that, so I try to use them educate other people. I also want to "bank" my plants in case something happens to them. One hurricane can wipe out all that I have. So there is nothing legally nor, in my opinion, morally wrong with what I've done. If you have a different opinion, please open up another thread in the proper forum. I would love to hear what others think about this.

Now the VFT's that I auctioned off. I documented with pictures of the vft's were in immanent danger. Legally by me collecting them without written permission, is a grey area. The law may or may not be on my side, but I feel that morally I've done the right thing. I took the vft's that were about to be destroyed and gave them a new home. I have them and will replant them on that site if it is ever safe to do so. Which unfortunately it never will because the whole area is slated for development. So I donated a portion of them to a charity so that hopefully a future site can be saved. I also got their genetics into the hands of cultivators. So I made a terrible situation into the best possible outcome. I never profited one penny on their collection. For most of them I even paid the shipping. Was removing them legal? Maybe or maybe not. That would have to be decided by a judge. Did I do the morally right thing? In my opinion I did. Again if you have a different opinion, let's hear it.

Now lets talk about removing the sphagnum and sundews from Mi.

It doesn't matter if the sundews were in the moss. You collected the moss and you also collected the sundews. If you steal a cash register from a store, you can't say you didn't steal the money inside.

Michigan law states :

324.36505 Prohibitions; exceptions.
Sec. 36505.

(1) Except as otherwise provided in this part, a person shall not take, possess, transport, import, export, process, sell, offer for sale, buy, or offer to buy, and a common or contract carrier shall not transport or receive for shipment, any species of fish, plants, or wildlife appearing on the following lists:

(a) The list of fish, plants, and wildlife indigenous to the state determined to be endangered or threatened within the state pursuant to section 36503 or subsection (3).

(b) The United States list of endangered or threatened native fish and wildlife.

(c) The United States list of endangered or threatened plants.

(d) The United States list of endangered or threatened foreign fish and wildlife.

(2) A species of fish, plant, or wildlife appearing on any of the lists delineated in subsection (1) which enters the state from another state or from a point outside the territorial limits of the United States may enter, be transported, possessed, and sold in accordance with the terms of a federal permit issued pursuant to section 10 of the endangered species act of 1973, 16 USC 1539, or an applicable permit issued under the laws of another state.

(3) The department may, by rule, treat any species as an endangered species or threatened species even though it is not listed pursuant to section 36503, if it finds any of the following:

(a) The species so closely resembles in appearance, at the point in question, a species which is listed pursuant to section 36503 that enforcement personnel would have substantial difficulty in attempting to differentiate between the listed and unlisted species.

(b) The effect of the substantial difficulty in differentiating between a listed and an unlisted species is an additional threat to an endangered or threatened species.

(c) The treatment of an unlisted species will substantially facilitate the enforcement and further the intent of this part.

(4) The department may permit the taking, possession, purchase, sale, transportation, exportation, or shipment of species of fish, plants, or wildlife which appear on the state list of endangered or threatened species compiled pursuant to section 36503 and subsection (3) for scientific, zoological, or educational purposes, for propagation in captivity of such fish, plants, or wildlife to ensure their survival.

(5) Upon good cause shown and where necessary to alleviate damage to property or to protect human health, endangered or threatened species found on the state list compiled pursuant to section 36503 and subsection (3) may be removed, captured, or destroyed, but only as authorized by a permit issued by the department pursuant to part 13. Carnivorous animals found on the state list may be removed, captured, or destroyed by any person in emergency situations involving an immediate threat to human life, but the removal, capture, or destruction shall be reported to the department within 24 hours of the act.

(6) This section does not prohibit any of the following:

(a) The importation of a trophy under a permit issued pursuant to section 10 of the endangered species act of 1973, 16 USC 1539, which is not for resale and which was lawfully taken in a manner permitted by the laws of the state, territory, or country where the trophy was caught, taken, or killed.

(b) The taking of a threatened species when the department has determined that the abundance of the species in the state justifies a controlled harvest not in violation of federal law.

(c) Subject to any permits that may be required by the department, the possession, transfer, transportation, importation, or exportation or the transport or receipt for shipment by a common or contract carrier of a raptor or the captive-bred progeny of a raptor, a raptor egg, or raptor semen acquired in accordance with applicable state and federal laws and regulations which allow raptors, raptor eggs, or raptor semen to be used in falconry or in the captive propagation of raptors for use in falconry.

(d) Subject to any permits that may be required by the department, the selling, offering for sale, buying, or offering to buy a raptor that was captive-bred or semen from a raptor that was captive-bred in accordance with applicable state and federal laws and regulations which allow raptors or raptor semen to be used in falconry or in captive propagation of raptors for use in falconry.

Just to highlight a few things that I think pertain to this situation.

(1) Except as otherwise provided in this part, a person shall not take, possess, transport, import, export, process, sell, offer for sale, buy, or offer to buy, and a common or contract carrier shall not transport or receive for shipment, any species of fish, plants, or wildlife appearing on the following lists

(3) The department may, by rule, treat any species as an endangered species or threatened species even though it is not listed pursuant to section 36503, if it finds any of the following:

(a) The species so closely resembles in appearance, at the point in question, a species which is listed pursuant to section 36503 that enforcement personnel would have substantial difficulty in attempting to differentiate between the listed and unlisted species.

(b) The effect of the substantial difficulty in differentiating between a listed and an unlisted species is an additional threat to an endangered or threatened species.

(c) The treatment of an unlisted species will substantially facilitate the enforcement and further the intent of this part.

(4) The department may permit the taking, possession, purchase, sale, transportation, exportation, or shipment of species of fish, plants, or wildlife which appear on the state list of endangered or threatened species compiled pursuant to section 36503 and subsection (3) for scientific, zoological, or educational purposes, for propagation in captivity of such fish, plants, or wildlife to ensure their survival.

(5) Upon good cause shown and where necessary to alleviate damage to property or to protect human health, endangered or threatened species found on the state list compiled pursuant to section 36503 and subsection (3) may be removed, captured, or destroyed, but only as authorized by a permit issued by the department pursuant to part 13. Carnivorous animals found on the state list may be removed, captured, or destroyed by any person in emergency situations involving an immediate threat to human life, but the removal, capture, or destruction shall be reported to the department within 24 hours of the act.

Now for the penalty:

324.36507 Violation; penalty.
Sec. 36507.

A person who violates this part or who fails to procure any permit required under this part is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $1,000.00 or less than $100.00, or both.

So legally you may be in the grey area too. I can assure you that if you are caught, that the wildlife officers wild lean toward the side of caution and arrest you. You may or may not win in court. Best case for you would be to win the case, but you will still have to pay a lawyer which will be more than the fines anyway. It'll be a lose/lose situation for sure.

That was the legal side of this, now for my opinion on the moral side. You are collecting for the sole purpose of making a profit. From what you said, they are not in any danger, you didn't give them to other people to bring awareness of their destruction, and you didn't give to benefit anybody but yourself.

Guess that's just a matter of opinion.. I make $100 a day on my morel sales. I get store credit at my local pet shop for dart frog moss. And now this.. I'm disabled and can't work so I have found ways to make money off of mother Earth. Call me naughty, or call me native American. At least I'm not ripping CP's out of the ground.

You did rip cp's from the ground. Notice my earlier comment about the cash register. I don't think you should be compared to Native Americans living off the land, you should be compared to the white man killing the buffaloes.

It's not my decision if what you are doing is legal or not. I have made my decision that what you are doing is immoral, so I won't ever trade with you. I also urge other members to think about what you'll doing and decide if they condone what you do, and then decide if they want to trade with you. It's Andrews decision if he believes that you might have violated the law, because if you break a law on this forum he could be held responsible too. So it's his decision whether to allow you trade an item which may or may not be legal on his forums.

 

[mass]

Notice it doesn't say anything about what a property owner may or may not do with what is on their land. That's a whole other story. You have done very well figuring out what a person may or may not do with Michigan land and what is found on it. Guess you didn't read the part where it say's,"The state's laws differ considerably between collecting wild "native" plants and collecting native plants on private property." I guess it's all up to Andrew..
I can prove it came from private property, and I can prove permission was given to remove it.
However, anyone that has a sealed agreement on the trade of this LFS can feel free to completely back out. No harm done. I will totally understand..

But I have to ask.. If the owner of private property has what they consider a "nuisance" and they tell someone to "take it all out of here, it just get's in the way". Then who is at fault, the owner or the removal person/company? Yes, the disposal of said product may come into question. Like what did the person do with it after it was removed. But then think about this.. How can our local nursery buy a peat bog in the Saginaw area, and harvest said peat to sell at their store? My "guess" would be because it has been purchased and has now become private property.

So really the only thing I may be doing wrong is using USPS to send "products" over state lines. They also no longer allow people to use their company to ship tarantulas. Which is why UPS and FedEx are the main source of shipping. But then again, when the USPS counter person asked what the contents of the package was and I said,"Live moss..". He replied with,"OH Okay.. it looked like a big bag of pot, so I had to ask." Guess they don't really have a problem with shipping said product over state lines.

NOW, onto the moral part of the discussion.. The property owner MOWS AS MUCH OF THIS STUFF DOWN AS HE CAN!! So, I am indeed saving this moss and it's contents from imminent destruction. And the trade and sale of these materials is strictly going to growers and cultivators. So, IMO.. I'm ensuring it's survival. Don't judge me if you don't know what the whole story is. Maybe you should've done more research..
Something else I just thought about.. according to you, the property owner isn't allowed to mow his property because that would be considered destruction and removal. So he could be arrested for mowing his lawn and removing the waste? Private property laws are different bud..

 

[mass]

Where's all the quick and witty responses I've grown so accustomed to!?!?

 

[Sig]

Where's all the quick and witty responses I've grown so accustomed to!?!?

GrowingOld! WHERE ARE YOU

 

[petmantis]

GrowingOld! WHERE ARE YOU

LOL! You can say that again!