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Thread: N.gracilis seeds available

  1. #17
    Admin- I'm growing CPs in the Desert of Tucson, Az. adnedarn's Avatar
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    Told who what? Me it's legal? Nope, I never said anything about CITES that is completely different and covers endangered plants only.
    http://www.cites.org
    CITES (the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora) is an international agreement between governments. Its aim is to ensure that international trade in specimens of wild animals and plants does not threaten their survival.
    As silenceisgod mentions, you either need a phytosanitary certificate or Small Lots of Seed Note the first line there that says
    Lots of seed may be imported without a phytosanitary certificate under the following conditions:
    indicating you need one or the other.

    Andrew

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    SDCPs's Avatar
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    What about exporting seed? Anything fancy needed?

  3. #19
    Eats genetically engineered tomatoes Sig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDCPs View Post
    What about exporting seed? Anything fancy needed?
    You don't need a permit to export seeds out of the country, but depending on the other country you do need something to import it there. They all have different rules besides that they accept phytosanitary certificates (provided they're not on CITES). Some people just put the seed in a regular envelope, that way there's almost no chance it won't go through if you put it in non see-through paper.

    I even found out you don't need a phyto cert to export regular plants from the US, you just might for the destination country. Some don't care.
    Formerly known as Silenceisgod!

  4. #20
    Hermopolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taliesin-DS View Post
    Ah! Not so fast. Seeds are governed by CITES, particularly Appendix I species. The seeds from Appendix I species of Nepenthes and Sarracenia require export and import permits. CITES definitely covers seeds; however, there are exceptions within CITES. Where not covered by CITES, you still need the proper permits to import seeds into the USA: '"Subpart–Nursery Stock, Plants, Roots, Bulbs, Seeds, and Other Plant Products" (7 CFR ß319.37) prohibit or restrict the importation of living plants, plant parts, and seeds for propagation.' The USDA requires that one obtains a Small Lots of Seed Permit prior to the importation of any seed whether it is in CITES or not.

    Nevertheless, CITES is not actually US Law; it is an international convention and treaty. The US implementation of the CITES Convention is the Endangered Species Act, which is actually more stringent than the CITES. The ESA treats seeds and pollen the same as if they were live plants (ESA A.17.3). The exception noted by Taliesin-DS is interpreted by the ESA as only those seeds that are from plants in cultivation (ESA G.17.71(a)). Seeds from CITES Appendix II wild populations are interpreted by the ESA as requiring a CITES permit.

    Depending upon the species and the circumstances, between one to three permits are required to import seeds into the USA.

    -Hermes.

    ---------- Post added at 08:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SDCPs View Post
    What about exporting seed? Anything fancy needed?
    It depends entirely upon what country you are exporting to. If it is an Appendix I species, you need CITES export permit to export seeds outside the country. If it is an Appendix II species, you may need an export permit but only if the receiving country requires it--not all countries implement CITES in the same way. Even though CITES does not require export permits for CPs listed as Appendix II species, national governments are free to impose more stringent regulations than are recommended by CITES. If the country has phytosanitary regulations, you will need to consult the laws of the country to where you are exporting.
    "The grass withers, the flower fades. But the word of our God stands forever." (Isaiah 40:8)

    My Grow List Updated Oct 22/2010.

  5. #21
    Eats genetically engineered tomatoes Sig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermopolis View Post
    Ah! Not so fast. Seeds are governed by CITES, particularly Appendix I species. The seeds from Appendix I species of Nepenthes and Sarracenia require export and import permits. CITES definitely covers seeds; however, there are exceptions within CITES. Where not covered by CITES, you still need the proper permits to import seeds into the USA: '"Subpart–Nursery Stock, Plants, Roots, Bulbs, Seeds, and Other Plant Products" (7 CFR ß319.37) prohibit or restrict the importation of living plants, plant parts, and seeds for propagation.' The USDA requires that one obtains a Small Lots of Seed Permit prior to the importation of any seed whether it is in CITES or not.

    Nevertheless, CITES is not actually US Law; it is an international convention and treaty. The US implementation of the CITES Convention is the Endangered Species Act, which is actually more stringent than the CITES. The ESA treats seeds and pollen the same as if they were live plants (ESA A.17.3). The exception noted by Taliesin-DS is interpreted by the ESA as only those seeds that are from plants in cultivation (ESA G.17.71(a)). Seeds from CITES Appendix II wild populations are interpreted by the ESA as requiring a CITES permit.

    Depending upon the species and the circumstances, between one to three permits are required to import seeds into the USA.

    -Hermes.

    ---------- Post added at 08:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 PM ----------



    It depends entirely upon what country you are exporting to. If it is an Appendix I species, you need CITES export permit to export seeds outside the country. If it is an Appendix II species, you may need an export permit but only if the receiving country requires it--not all countries implement CITES in the same way. Even though CITES does not require export permits for CPs listed as Appendix II species, national governments are free to impose more stringent regulations than are recommended by CITES. If the country has phytosanitary regulations, you will need to consult the laws of the country to where you are exporting.
    In this case, the only Nepenthes on Appendix I is khasiana and rajah. All others have the #4 footnote, which excludes seeds as a restriction. (http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.shtml#hash4)

    As for the endangered species act, it only deals with native species! Imagine that! Nepenthes species are non-native and are excluded. So looking at all the fine print, it's not only legal to get it into the country, you can also send it across state lines! I thought with nep seeds you'd have to deal with CITES and US law, but apparently not. All you have to worry about is the seeds themselves, and that's not nearly as big a problem.
    http://ecos.fws.gov/tess_public/Spec...=L&mapstatus=1
    Last edited by Sig; 11-24-2010 at 06:08 PM.
    Formerly known as Silenceisgod!

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    hmm....i not so sure about the permit stuff, but kinda know a bit about how it works...

  7. #23
    Eats genetically engineered tomatoes Sig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allenphoon View Post
    hmm....i not so sure about the permit stuff, but kinda know a bit about how it works...
    Basically, in this specific case, you can either send the seeds in a regular envelope and be illegal but with almost no chance of getting caught, or have the person in America fill out a small lots of seed permit and email you a copy, to be but on the envelope or package. Provided the seeds are still good.
    Formerly known as Silenceisgod!

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    Quote Originally Posted by silenceisgod View Post
    In this case, the only Nepenthes on Appendix I is khasiana and rajah. All others have the #4 footnote, which excludes seeds as a restriction. (http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.shtml#hash4)
    You are mostly correct that Appendix II Nepenthes seed according to the CITES Convention are exempt from needing a permit. Footnote #4 specifies an exemption under what is normally covered under CITES. However, we have to be careful to ensure that our interpretation of the CITES convention matches how the ESA interprets the Convention, since the ESA is the regulatory arm of CITES in the USA.


    Quote Originally Posted by silenceisgod View Post
    As for the endangered species act, it only deals with native species! Imagine that!
    I believe that is incorrect. And I quote from a US Fish & Wildlife Service publication entitled U.S. Endangered Species Act: Permits for Non-native Species or Import and Export of Non-native and Native Species, "The U.S. Endangered Species Act (Act) was passed to prevent the extinction of native and non-native animals and plants by providing measures to help alleviate the loss of species and their habitats" (p. 1, emphasis added).

    And again I quote from Digest of Federal Resource Laws of Interest to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service,

    Endangered Species Act of 1973 (16 U.S.C. 1531-1544, 87 Stat. 884), as amended -- Public Law 93-205, approved December 28, 1973, repealed the Endangered Species Conservation Act of December 5, 1969 (P.L. 91-135, 83 Stat. 275). The 1969 Act had amended the Endangered Species Preservation Act of October 15, 1966 (P.L. 89-669, 80 Stat. 926).

    The 1973 Act implemented the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (T.I.A.S. 8249), signed by the United States on March 3, 1973, and the Convention on Nature Protection and Wildlife Preservation in the Western Hemisphere (50 Stat. 1354), signed by the United States on October 12, 1940.

    Furthermore, the interpretation conveyed by the ESA in the Federal Regulations does include seeds, "The prohibitions apply equally to live or dead animals or plants, their progeny (seeds in the case of plants), and parts or products derived from them." (Digest of Federal Resource Laws, p. 1, emphasis added). And from the act itself, "The term 'plant' means any member of the plant kingdom, including seeds, roots and other parts thereof." (16 U.S.C. 1532, 14). However, under the wording of the ESA, it is likely that the importation of some exempted Appendix II seed is legal upon the following basis:

    Any importation into the United States of fish or wildlife shall, ifó
    (A) such fish or wildlife is not an endangered species listed pursuant to section 4 of this Act but is listed in Appendix II of the Convention;
    (B) the taking and exportation of such fish or wildlife is not contrary to the provisions of the Convention and all other applicable requirements of the Convention have been satisfied;
    (C) the applicable requirements of subsection (d), (e), and (f) of this section have been satisfied; and
    (D) such importation is not made in the course of a commercial
    activity;
    be presumed to be an important not in violation of any provision of this Act or any regulation issued pursuant to this Act. (16 U.S.C. 1538, 9(c))

    But, do note that that the exemption here is for species that are listed as Appendix II and are not endangered. The determination of what is an endangered species is determined by the Secretary of Commerce (ESA, section 4).

    What is not criminally illegal by CITES (because again CITES is an international treaty, not US criminal law) can be made criminal by US Law in this case the ESA. There is language in the ESA to make regulations stricter than is required by CITES or even the act itself,

    Any State law or regulation respecting the taking of an endangered species or threatened species may be more restrictive than the exemptions or permits provided for in this Act or in any regulation which implements this Act but not less restrictive than the prohibitions so defined. (16 U.S.C. 1535, (f)2)

    The problem with the trade of exempted Appendix II seeds is that it is possible for them to be covered under the ESA by regulatory fiat; for example, regulatory fiat has stated that the seeds from exempted Appendix II species cannot be wild-collected. "Seeds of threatened plants require permits if the seed came from wild plants, but do not require permits if the seeds are from artificially propagated plants. A label stating that the seeds are of cultivated origin must accompany the shipment of such seeds." (http://www.fws.gov/permits/faqs/FaqNOPQ.shtml)

    So, are nepenthes seeds covered by ESA interpretation of CITES? Yes, but there are exemptions.
    • If it is wild-collected Appendix II nep seed, then a permit is needed.
    • If Appendix II nep seed is bought or sold in regular commerce, then a permit is required.
    • If it is seed from artificially propagated Appendix II nep plants, then a permit is not needed.
    • If it is an Appendix I species, then both an import and an export permit are needed.
    And regardless of whether a CITES permit is required, the USDA always requires a seeds permit of some kind.


    -Hermes.
    "The grass withers, the flower fades. But the word of our God stands forever." (Isaiah 40:8)

    My Grow List Updated Oct 22/2010.

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