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Thread: greenhouse

  1. #17

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    From the ICPS FAQ on CITES:


    Relevant rules:
    Carnivorous plant enthusiasts within the USA must take care to follow its regulations, even though some of the regulations could be easily thwarted by shipping unmarked boxes in the mail. In particular, the following actions are regulated by the E.S.A.:

    1)You may not engage in "trade" of plants with anyone outside of your state. Trade means you cannot sell plants, barter plants for goods, or even exchange plants for plants. (see E.S.A. F.17.61(d),(e).

    --Qualifier #1: It is my reading of the E.S.A. that you may transmit listed plants across state lines personally or through the mail if it is purely a gift, and if you do not ask for money. This is because such an activity is not considered commerce (see E.S.A. F.17.61(d), (e)). However, I could also argue that even gifts are prohibited by E.S.A. F.17.61(b), but I do not think this is the case.

    --Qualifier #2: I suppose you could ask your interstate partner to send you money to cover postage, packing, etc. However, I would not do this if I were you. I would advise that you simply eat the postage charges and stay clear of breaking the law.
    Last edited by The Griffin; 09-07-2012 at 08:45 AM.

  2. #18
    mcmcnair's Avatar
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    @Griffin, so what you are saying is that every trade that occurs on this forum is technically illegal? Because "trading" plants is not something that I think anyone cares about with endangered or threatened species being the exception. This is one of those laws that is written but not enforced, such as the law on bundling. Technically forcing someone to buy two shoes instead of just one shoe when shoe shopping is bundling which is illegal, but because no one cares it is not enforced.
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  3. #19

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    My apologies, as I am not even involved in the trade.
    I just happened to be reading the FAQ when I saw this thread, and thought I would help by showing the section from the CITES area.
    I did not mean to stir up controversy.

  4. #20
    mcmcnair's Avatar
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    I wasn't trying to attack you or anything, just wanted to point that out. Also if you had said Those clauses were from CITES it would have been implied that one, you were dealing internationally, and two that you are automatically talking about protected plants. CITES does not apply to common plants. Again didn't mean to attack you sorry if it came across that way.
    NCSU's Carnivore Nut
    Original President of the CCPS & Co-Founder
    Mason M.
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  5. #21
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    *edit*
    Last edited by Whimgrinder; 09-07-2012 at 12:51 PM.

  6. #22
    Hello, I must be going... Not a Number's Avatar
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    CITES Appendix I species are covered by the Endangered Species Act of 1973 (ESA). This regulates the interstate movement of species listed under the ESA. Sarracenia rubra ssp alabamensis (Sarracenia alabamensis) was added to the ESA list 10 March 1989.

    The US Fish and Wildlife Service regulates and enforces CITES and the ESA in the United States.

    http://ecos.fws.gov/docs/federal_register/fr1529.pdf
    http://ecos.fws.gov/speciesProfile/p...on?spcode=Q2HZ
    http://www.fws.gov/endangered/laws-policies/index.html
    http://www.epa.gov/lawsregs/laws/esa.html

    There has been pages and pages of discussion on this subject. I suggest you read the "Very Illegal!" thread started by Bugweed in the Conservation or NASC section of the forum.
    Last edited by Not a Number; 09-07-2012 at 12:00 PM.
    Grand Hotel... always the same. People come, people go. Nothing ever happens.

  7. #23
    jimmy uphwiz's Avatar
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    Thanks andrew for watching out for me, I do like to give stuff away, I think most members here know that, but I don't want end up paying a hefty fine for being generous, or ignorant. I didn't realize alabamensis was on this list, and if anyone here is saying this trade is illegal, then the trade can be made for another plant. I'm just trying to save the greenhouse from collapse, under a heavy snow, as I'm not able to keep it clean from my new location, when heavy snow falls.
    .
    I know everyone cant afford a greenhouse , even a kit setup like this, but I did get a great deal on it when it was new in the box, I probably wont be able to replace even if I end up in a location down the road where I could use it. I hate to let it go, but have to, or it will become trash in heavy snow, it was very close last year, but my brother-n- law saved it for me during a snow storm, he stayed up all night, and cleaned it off every hour or two, I doubt that will happen again this year.
    .
    However, I would still like the alabamensis, if someone crosses the state line and picks up the plant at meadow view, and the plant stays in virginia, isn't that ok. Im in the martinsville virginia area, and the plant will be staying here with me, It looks like mksmith will get the greenhouse, but if the trade falls through with mike I will still trade to anyone who has already made an offer here, mksmith will get the first option though (mike I will trade with you on something else if necessary) we'll just trade for something not on the CITIES list.
    lets save this greenhouse
    Can some one here just say this can or cannot be done, reading all the rules still confuses me a bit, the plant is staying in the same state, and it looks like the greenhouse will stay in the same state as well.
    ok or not ok.

  8. #24
    RL7836's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcmcnair View Post
    @Griffin, so what you are saying is that every trade that occurs on this forum is technically illegal? Because "trading" plants is not something that I think anyone cares about with endangered or threatened species being the exception. This is one of those laws that is written but not enforced, such as the law on bundling.
    I believe you are confusing the levels - there are only a handful of plants that qualify under Griifins quote (S. alabamensis, S. jonesii, S. oreophila, & possibly N. clipeata?)(If I'm forgetting some - holler). So your first statement is inaccurate - Joe's quote is not 'saying' that every trade that occurs on this forum is illegal. In fact, the population on TF does a decent job of warning people who are about to break the law in some way. This does not fall into the category of "not something that I think anyone cares about". From what I have seen - people do care about breaking the law (on TF) and imo, you should refrain from creating (& posting) some form of rationalization which attempts to justify violations.
    Quote Originally Posted by mcmcnair View Post
    I wasn't trying to attack you or anything,...
    It definitely came across like that to me...

    Ah - I see NaN already supplied some additional info (while I was writing .... slowly) & provided some valuable suggested reading - especially for folks suggesting that breaking the law is ok ...

    Jimmy - my apologies for the thread hijack.
    All the best,
    Ron
    You must do the thing you think you cannot do. --- Eleanor Roosevelt

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