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Thread: Jungle Harvested N. viking seeds on eBay

  1. #9

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    Est, get real...every plant you grow, somoen took out of the wild at some point.

    The way people at TF view "conservation" is the biggest drawback to this forum. Case in point, you don't think I care about conservation because I'm not throwing a hissy fit like a little girl not getting her way any time anything happens in the wild.

    By the way, awful argument, seeing as the majority of it consisted of quoting me and adding ", right?" to the end. I'm not looking for "perty, cheap plants" by the way. I've had globosa for a year now.

    And btw, 2% germination rate in the wild is something the experts will agree upon.

    Again, I think you completely missed the point of my post. I wasn't saying "its ok who cares let everyone do it". Obviously if everyone did it, all wild populations of everything would be totally decimated. But of course, everyone is not going to do it. Look at things like talangensis...the destruction of that habitat was caused by lava, and due to people colelcting seed from talangensis, we now have enough plants in culture to not worry about inbreeding depression, etc. In the case of clipeata, it was suffering from overcollection of mature plants, not seeds, and the population was ultimately destroyed by fire.
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  2. #10
    War. War never changes. Est's Avatar
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    Est, get real...every plant you grow, somoen took out of the wild at some point.
    There's no denying it, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. Times, however have changed. There's more and more oppotunity to go through proper channels, to take genetic samplings while making a minimal amount of damage to the population(s) involved. While I can't change the soure of the originals of plants in circulations we CAN change how new plant material comes in to circulation. There's ways that are ethical as well as ultimately beneficial to the population(s) involved. It doesn't need to be one way or the other.

    The way people at TF view "conservation" is the biggest drawback to this forum. Case in point, you don't think I care about conservation because I'm not throwing a hissy fit like a little girl not getting her way any time anything happens in the wild.
    Sexism always makes for a GREAT way to get your point across. Good on ya, mate.

    By the way, awful argument, seeing as the majority of it consisted of quoting me and adding ", right?"
    Hate to repond like this, but you leave me no choice: Sarcasm.
    The point is that your assertions when extrapolated to any sort of useful degree are in line with some pretty poor practices.

    And btw, 2% germination rate in the wild is something the experts will agree upon.
    Great! I'm glad there was something factual.

    Look at things like talangensis...the destruction of that habitat was caused by lava, and due to people colelcting seed from talangensis, we now have enough plants in culture to not worry about inbreeding depression, etc. In the case of clipeata, it was suffering from overcollection of mature plants, not seeds, and the population was ultimately destroyed by fire.
    This goes to show, there's ways to go about things that are correct, even if it sometimes goes against what a law says. If a species was threatened by lavaflow and people saved it despite laws not being elastic to effectively respond and change in time, then that's just peachy. Not legal, but I'd say ethically correct- anyone can feel free to disagree.

    However, the thing is that these collections were not made to be genetical samplings to proliferated and protect the species, they were made for profit, pure and simple. These seeds aren't being sent to establishments that can and do have the facilities to maximize success and help to proliferate the species and help take away the market for poaching plant material, these seeds appear to rather do the exact oposite. If people scramble all over the seed offerings, do you think that a seller will really just keep on selling the occasional seed? Afraid not, by purchasing these seeds you support the growth of a market. May just be seeds today, but tomorrow it's ofshoots, then after that mature plants.

    To sum up: There's channels today, there's ways that we can do things better. Sometimes they fail us, and in this case, there's an ethics call to be made. Circumventing channels or supporting the growth of a market which is disruptive to a plant community that you supposedly support the conservation of is contradictory at best.

    Now, perhapse I was previously a bit more sarcastic than I strictly could have been, I think that most folks will see that there's a chord to be struck here, but I apologize if anyone was overly taken aback.
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    "Not legal, but I'd say ethically correct"
    Great job having a solid platform. But of course, you have to be able to twist it to the way you want it for each separate occasion.

    Yeah, the guy is doing it for "profit", but if you were starving, wouldn't you do the same? Do you have any idea how low the income of people in the area where globosa grows is? If its below poverty level there, try to think of that in our terms. Are you saying the person is wrong to do what they're doing, simply to survive? To you, neps are coveted, exotic blah blah blah. To this person, its a resource, and if this person needs to utilize said resource in order to survive, so be it. If the person is breaking laws or not is the Thai government's problem, and not yours.

    Haven't you ever heard BE's motto..."conservation through cultivation"? I'm afriad thats the only way to save some of these plants.
    People have been wild collecting and utilizing plants since the beginning of people. I highly doubt this guy collecting seed, even to a greater extent, is going to cause some sort of catastrophe, as you are making it out to seem. Please educate yourself on the probabily of nep seed becoming a mature individual in the wild, and please please learn a thing or two about population dynamics. The way plant material comes into circulation (usually through seed) doesn't need to be changed per se. If you had any type of knowledge on the topic, you would see that as viable. The only thing that possibly needs to be changed for long term survival of a species is the circulation of MORE seed and MORE seedgrown plants.

    What are you suggesting in place of wild-collecting seed? Tissue culture? If thats the case, you obviously have no regard for the survival of any nep species in the long run. I'd rather not end up writing pages and pages, especially when solid views from the top growers are already readily availble. I do however, invite you visit the pitcherplants forum in an attempt to educate yourself about a less fanatical, and far more practical view on conservation.

    Here's a pretty good thread to start, including commentary by quite a few experts:
    http://pitcherplants.proboards34.com...ead=1182557621

    If you want to continue to masquerade as an expert in regard to these topics, please start posting in that forum. I guarantee it will be a very humbling experience...it certainly was for me.
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  4. #12
    Doing it wrong until I do it right. xvart's Avatar
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    Is it the same guy who would sell "5 wild Nepenthes thailand" with the picture of massive amounts of pitchers? I would occasionally search for him and at least he stopped selling (on ebay at least) for a while... So, maybe it was just coincidence, but it seemed after a lot of people on the forum reported him for possible wild collecting violations he didn't post (or wasn't allowed to post) anymore... So a little hell raising on forums might have a small impact.

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  5. #13
    War. War never changes. Est's Avatar
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    Yeah, the guy is doing it for "profit", but if you were starving, wouldn't you do the same? Do you have any idea how low the income of people in the area where globosa grows is? If its below poverty level there, try to think of that in our terms. Are you saying the person is wrong to do what they're doing, simply to survive? To you, neps are coveted, exotic blah blah blah. To this person, its a resource, and if this person needs to utilize said resource in order to survive, so be it. If the guys is breaking laws or not is the Thai government's problem, and not yours.
    If I were starving, my internet connection would be the first thing to go.
    But there's a real easy way to solve this mystery. Having located the person selling the item on ebay and look at their buying habits, I think I can pretty definitively say that the seller is not some poor guy just trying to scrounge some cash so he can feed his family. I think if that were the case, he'd spend less time buying bumper stickers, novelty toothpick holders, and DVDs.

    Funny thing actually, he purchased a CP DVD. So it's quite possible that he's just a guy living in Thailand who grows the plants. I aint got a problem with him selling his seeds, if that's the case. I figure that JLAP's theory that the "from the jungle" thing is more of a marketing device than an accurate descriptor as to the origins of the seeds. Or so I hope.

    Haven't you ever heard BE's motto..."conservation through cultivation"? I'm afriad thats the only way to save some of these plants.
    Perhapse I misrepresented my point; allow me to reword it. In my last post I expressly stated that I support conservation through cultivation. My reservation lies in the source material and the means.
    If the material originates from a practice which is detrimental to the population, I don't agree with it. If the population is facing eminent destruction, then there is an ethical basis for taking material with which I agree. So frankly, your claims that I'm just being a fanatic are prety baseless. Please read my last post again and I'm sure you'll see; I think you're rather misrepresenting or misenterpriting what I've said.

    Frankly, there's nothing more I can say because your post is directed at things that I haven't said. I'm afraid, however, that you miscalculate the damage that can occurr when collections go unchecked. Once again, see: proper channels.
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  6. #14
    It's been one of dem days BigCarnivourKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phissionkorps View Post
    Yeah, the guy is doing it for "profit", but if you were starving, wouldn't you do the same? Do you have any idea how low the income of people in the area where globosa grows is?
    He can't be to poor. He's got internet access and is apparently able to check his ebay stuff on a regular basis to fill orders.
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    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    When will the truly poor ever know what it's like to have novelty toothpick holders and bumper stickers? Bless their hearts. Their poor hearts.

    This isn't really a case of someone finding a new species and taking some seeds to put in vitro. This is about some dude selling seeds of a species that's already reasonably common in cultivation, yet pretty isolated in the wild. I still think it's just marketing. I mean, it's making us talk about it right? Must be working.


    I'm also going to play devils advocate and say that when you say it's OK to break the law if the plants are doomed, then say go through proper channels, it's sending a mixed message.


    I also wonder why one of his auctions says from the jungle, and one does not. In the one with pictures of A x A, you can clearly see cultivated nepenthes in the background. Maybe he's just stupid and decided it was not only a good idea to wild collect this, but to also advertise it?

  8. #16
    War. War never changes. Est's Avatar
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    I'm also going to play devils advocate and say that when you say it's OK to break the law if the plants are doomed, then say go through proper channels, it's sending a mixed message.
    Unfortunately, that's ethics for you. However, I think I drew the line between what can be considered an ethical choice and what isn't. In this case, there's no ethical standing to go out and harvest seed from plants in the wild. So while ethics may be rather subjective, this is a pretty objective, clearcut point.


    This isn't really a case of someone finding a new species and taking some seeds. This is about some dude selling seeds of a species that's already reasonably common in cultivation, yet pretty isolated in the wild.
    Very well put. This guy isn't introducing a new species, he isn't securing genetic material to add diversity to plants in cultivation, this is a purely economic endeavour.
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