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Jungle Harvested N. viking seeds on eBay

NeciFiX

Kung Fu Fighting!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but, someone took N. viking out of the jungle and sold it on eBay, is it just as illegal to sell N. viking seed harvested from the Jungle on eBay? This guy even admitted to it! Please tell me, if it is I'll post the link here.
 
oh boy, he's at it again. This is probably the same person that has been selling illegal stuff on ebay for a while.

I'd say it is a no no, but let's see what others say.
 
Seeds are not CITES protected, nor is globosa. Perhaps collecting the seed is illegal in regards to local laws, perhaps not. Either way, globosa is from a pretty remote location...whos gunna stop the guy?

I'm all about conservation, but some people here need to know where to draw the line. Seed germination rate in the wild is only 2% anyway...but anyone with a pot of peat, a plastic bag, and a fluorescent light can get about 80% germination. Of course, of the 2% that germinate in the wild, maybe 2% of those will make it to maturity.

The guy thats doing it isn't getting rich by it, thats for sure. In fact, theres about a 99% chance he's doing it just to be able to get enough money to eat. And again, who are we to tell indigenous peoples what they can or can not do with their own plants in their own country?
 
I'm all about conservation, but some people here need to know where to draw the line. Seed germination rate in the wild is only 2% anyway...but anyone with a pot of peat, a plastic bag, and a fluorescent light can get about 80% germination. Of course, of the 2% that germinate in the wild, maybe 2% of those will make it to maturity.

Cute justification. I mean, who cares about carnivorous plants anyway? I mean, if they're not in my hands, they may as well be paved over. Right? I mean, we can do it so much better than mother nature anyway, right? I mean, if they can't survive, then that's their problem, survival of the fittest and all. I mean, 94% of the plants will be gone in a few years anyway. In my collection less than 2% die.

The guy thats doing it isn't getting rich by it, thats for sure. In fact, theres about a 99% chance he's doing it just to be able to get enough money to eat.

Right on! I heard you can get ivory for a good price and feed a family for several weeks! Ivory is on the upswing, and the elephants don't really need them anyway! Like only probably about maybe 3% even care.

Either way, globosa is from a pretty remote location...whos gunna stop the guy?

It's gonna happen anyway, so why care, right? Instead of actually doing something, let's make ourselves feel good.


Ok, the sarcasm is burning. We can pull numbers and figures out of our rear-ends all day long and makes postulations as to the economic and moral state of our seller and how he's must be some benevolent benefactor doing good for his family and community. I mean, whatever helps you sleep.

Lets say I give you the complete benefit of the doubt, that all of your statements, assertions, and figures are spot on. This isn't you giving a **** of a care about conservation. You just want some perty, cheap plants. You don't care how they get to your hands, all you need to do is stick your fingers in your ear and hum until the plants/seeds arrive on your doorstep.

Even if this guy is legit, that isn't a justification for making random feel-good statements about how it's really for the good of the plants. Sell that somewhere else.
 
I was always under the impression that if a plant is protected under the CITES Treaty all parts including seeds were included. I have no particular interest in nepenthes (I think they all pretty much look alike) but I assume N. globosa is the plant in question. If it is not protected then I agree with you, however:

"who are we to tell indigenous peoples what they can or can not do with their own plants in their own country?"

If they live in one of the 150 or so countries that signed the treaty then I would expect them to follow the letter of the law the same as I am expected to do here in the U.S. I imagine most of you on this forum would be in a total uproar if poor Bubba collected the last remaining CITES protected Sarracenia to sell on ebay to raise money for himself. But then again who are we to tell indigenous southerners what they can do with plants in their own country?
I agree 80% germination rate is wonderful- but with that logic why not plunder all the seed pods from all of the endangered plants and grow them away from their natural habitat? CITES protected animals would probably survive and breed better in a zoological park - would you advocate a mass round up?
 
Sorry EST I was typing when you posted - I just assumed nobody was going to respond - had I read yours I wouldn't have bothered.
 
Sorry EST I was typing when you posted - I just assumed nobody was going to respond - had I read yours I wouldn't have bothered.

Definitely no need to apologize. Post away! lol
 
They are very remote. I didn't think anyone except the very locals knew where they were.

Maybe he's playing up the wild collected jungle part to appeal to westerners or something. The whole "mysterious Asian jungle" sort of thing like from the old movies, and really they are from a pot in his back yard.

Or maybe not.


SAVE THE ELEPHANTS AND NEPENTHES!
 
Est, get real...every plant you grow, somoen took out of the wild at some point.

The way people at TF view "conservation" is the biggest drawback to this forum. Case in point, you don't think I care about conservation because I'm not throwing a hissy fit like a little girl not getting her way any time anything happens in the wild.

By the way, awful argument, seeing as the majority of it consisted of quoting me and adding ", right?" to the end. I'm not looking for "perty, cheap plants" by the way. I've had globosa for a year now.

And btw, 2% germination rate in the wild is something the experts will agree upon.

Again, I think you completely missed the point of my post. I wasn't saying "its ok who cares let everyone do it". Obviously if everyone did it, all wild populations of everything would be totally decimated. But of course, everyone is not going to do it. Look at things like talangensis...the destruction of that habitat was caused by lava, and due to people colelcting seed from talangensis, we now have enough plants in culture to not worry about inbreeding depression, etc. In the case of clipeata, it was suffering from overcollection of mature plants, not seeds, and the population was ultimately destroyed by fire.
 
  • #10
Est, get real...every plant you grow, somoen took out of the wild at some point.

There's no denying it, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. Times, however have changed. There's more and more oppotunity to go through proper channels, to take genetic samplings while making a minimal amount of damage to the population(s) involved. While I can't change the soure of the originals of plants in circulations we CAN change how new plant material comes in to circulation. There's ways that are ethical as well as ultimately beneficial to the population(s) involved. It doesn't need to be one way or the other.

The way people at TF view "conservation" is the biggest drawback to this forum. Case in point, you don't think I care about conservation because I'm not throwing a hissy fit like a little girl not getting her way any time anything happens in the wild.

Sexism always makes for a GREAT way to get your point across. Good on ya, mate.

By the way, awful argument, seeing as the majority of it consisted of quoting me and adding ", right?"

Hate to repond like this, but you leave me no choice: Sarcasm.
The point is that your assertions when extrapolated to any sort of useful degree are in line with some pretty poor practices.

And btw, 2% germination rate in the wild is something the experts will agree upon.

Great! I'm glad there was something factual.

Look at things like talangensis...the destruction of that habitat was caused by lava, and due to people colelcting seed from talangensis, we now have enough plants in culture to not worry about inbreeding depression, etc. In the case of clipeata, it was suffering from overcollection of mature plants, not seeds, and the population was ultimately destroyed by fire.

This goes to show, there's ways to go about things that are correct, even if it sometimes goes against what a law says. If a species was threatened by lavaflow and people saved it despite laws not being elastic to effectively respond and change in time, then that's just peachy. Not legal, but I'd say ethically correct- anyone can feel free to disagree.

However, the thing is that these collections were not made to be genetical samplings to proliferated and protect the species, they were made for profit, pure and simple. These seeds aren't being sent to establishments that can and do have the facilities to maximize success and help to proliferate the species and help take away the market for poaching plant material, these seeds appear to rather do the exact oposite. If people scramble all over the seed offerings, do you think that a seller will really just keep on selling the occasional seed? Afraid not, by purchasing these seeds you support the growth of a market. May just be seeds today, but tomorrow it's ofshoots, then after that mature plants.

To sum up: There's channels today, there's ways that we can do things better. Sometimes they fail us, and in this case, there's an ethics call to be made. Circumventing channels or supporting the growth of a market which is disruptive to a plant community that you supposedly support the conservation of is contradictory at best.

Now, perhapse I was previously a bit more sarcastic than I strictly could have been, I think that most folks will see that there's a chord to be struck here, but I apologize if anyone was overly taken aback.
 
  • #11
"Not legal, but I'd say ethically correct"
Great job having a solid platform. But of course, you have to be able to twist it to the way you want it for each separate occasion.

Yeah, the guy is doing it for "profit", but if you were starving, wouldn't you do the same? Do you have any idea how low the income of people in the area where globosa grows is? If its below poverty level there, try to think of that in our terms. Are you saying the person is wrong to do what they're doing, simply to survive? To you, neps are coveted, exotic blah blah blah. To this person, its a resource, and if this person needs to utilize said resource in order to survive, so be it. If the person is breaking laws or not is the Thai government's problem, and not yours.

Haven't you ever heard BE's motto..."conservation through cultivation"? I'm afriad thats the only way to save some of these plants.
People have been wild collecting and utilizing plants since the beginning of people. I highly doubt this guy collecting seed, even to a greater extent, is going to cause some sort of catastrophe, as you are making it out to seem. Please educate yourself on the probabily of nep seed becoming a mature individual in the wild, and please please learn a thing or two about population dynamics. The way plant material comes into circulation (usually through seed) doesn't need to be changed per se. If you had any type of knowledge on the topic, you would see that as viable. The only thing that possibly needs to be changed for long term survival of a species is the circulation of MORE seed and MORE seedgrown plants.

What are you suggesting in place of wild-collecting seed? Tissue culture? If thats the case, you obviously have no regard for the survival of any nep species in the long run. I'd rather not end up writing pages and pages, especially when solid views from the top growers are already readily availble. I do however, invite you visit the pitcherplants forum in an attempt to educate yourself about a less fanatical, and far more practical view on conservation.

Here's a pretty good thread to start, including commentary by quite a few experts:
http://pitcherplants.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1182557621

If you want to continue to masquerade as an expert in regard to these topics, please start posting in that forum. I guarantee it will be a very humbling experience...it certainly was for me.
 
  • #12
Is it the same guy who would sell "5 wild Nepenthes thailand" with the picture of massive amounts of pitchers? I would occasionally search for him and at least he stopped selling (on ebay at least) for a while... So, maybe it was just coincidence, but it seemed after a lot of people on the forum reported him for possible wild collecting violations he didn't post (or wasn't allowed to post) anymore... So a little hell raising on forums might have a small impact.

xvart.
 
  • #13
Yeah, the guy is doing it for "profit", but if you were starving, wouldn't you do the same? Do you have any idea how low the income of people in the area where globosa grows is? If its below poverty level there, try to think of that in our terms. Are you saying the person is wrong to do what they're doing, simply to survive? To you, neps are coveted, exotic blah blah blah. To this person, its a resource, and if this person needs to utilize said resource in order to survive, so be it. If the guys is breaking laws or not is the Thai government's problem, and not yours.

If I were starving, my internet connection would be the first thing to go.
But there's a real easy way to solve this mystery. Having located the person selling the item on ebay and look at their buying habits, I think I can pretty definitively say that the seller is not some poor guy just trying to scrounge some cash so he can feed his family. I think if that were the case, he'd spend less time buying bumper stickers, novelty toothpick holders, and DVDs.

Funny thing actually, he purchased a CP DVD. So it's quite possible that he's just a guy living in Thailand who grows the plants. I aint got a problem with him selling his seeds, if that's the case. I figure that JLAP's theory that the "from the jungle" thing is more of a marketing device than an accurate descriptor as to the origins of the seeds. Or so I hope.

Haven't you ever heard BE's motto..."conservation through cultivation"? I'm afriad thats the only way to save some of these plants.

Perhapse I misrepresented my point; allow me to reword it. In my last post I expressly stated that I support conservation through cultivation. My reservation lies in the source material and the means.
If the material originates from a practice which is detrimental to the population, I don't agree with it. If the population is facing eminent destruction, then there is an ethical basis for taking material with which I agree. So frankly, your claims that I'm just being a fanatic are prety baseless. Please read my last post again and I'm sure you'll see; I think you're rather misrepresenting or misenterpriting what I've said.

Frankly, there's nothing more I can say because your post is directed at things that I haven't said. I'm afraid, however, that you miscalculate the damage that can occurr when collections go unchecked. Once again, see: proper channels.
 
  • #14
Yeah, the guy is doing it for "profit", but if you were starving, wouldn't you do the same? Do you have any idea how low the income of people in the area where globosa grows is?
He can't be to poor. He's got internet access and is apparently able to check his ebay stuff on a regular basis to fill orders.
 
  • #15
When will the truly poor ever know what it's like to have novelty toothpick holders and bumper stickers? Bless their hearts. Their poor hearts.

This isn't really a case of someone finding a new species and taking some seeds to put in vitro. This is about some dude selling seeds of a species that's already reasonably common in cultivation, yet pretty isolated in the wild. I still think it's just marketing. I mean, it's making us talk about it right? Must be working.


I'm also going to play devils advocate and say that when you say it's OK to break the law if the plants are doomed, then say go through proper channels, it's sending a mixed message.


I also wonder why one of his auctions says from the jungle, and one does not. In the one with pictures of A x A, you can clearly see cultivated nepenthes in the background. Maybe he's just stupid and decided it was not only a good idea to wild collect this, but to also advertise it?
 
  • #16
I'm also going to play devils advocate and say that when you say it's OK to break the law if the plants are doomed, then say go through proper channels, it's sending a mixed message.

Unfortunately, that's ethics for you. However, I think I drew the line between what can be considered an ethical choice and what isn't. In this case, there's no ethical standing to go out and harvest seed from plants in the wild. So while ethics may be rather subjective, this is a pretty objective, clearcut point.


This isn't really a case of someone finding a new species and taking some seeds. This is about some dude selling seeds of a species that's already reasonably common in cultivation, yet pretty isolated in the wild.

Very well put. This guy isn't introducing a new species, he isn't securing genetic material to add diversity to plants in cultivation, this is a purely economic endeavour.
 
  • #17
SO in your mind, if taking seed is detrimental to a population (it isn't), I'll go out on a limb and say you wouldn't agree with taking plants (especially mature) out of the wild. In that case, what other practices do you recommend for getting neps into cultivation? If you're against seed collection, you're out of options.

By the way, I never claimed you were a fanatic. Insinuated, yes. People here and on CPUK for that matter are quick to jump at something like this, with little to (more often than not) no knowledge of the situation as a whole. Its easy to say "someone's doing something illegal!", fly off the handle, and jump on the hoopin' and hollerin' bandwagon. Its harder to actually look at facts, figures, and make an informed judgement on the fact that 1 person selling seeds on eBay is going to have absolutely no effect on the population as a whole. No one here knows if the guy even broke any laws, obviously there is admittance that he may just be doing it to increase sales. Assuming he is breaking a law though, it would be better for the 1 person that found it to report it if they felt necessary (not that its really anyone's business but the proper authorities anyway) to the proper authorities, and leave it at that. Making a topic about it where everyone dons a "holier (more conservationist?) than thou" attitude, and jumps in saying "yeah! thats wrong!" will never accomplish anything, and is in fact entirely pointless.
 
  • #18
the guy is actually increasing genetic diversity by getting seeds. Most plants we grow are clones, and are thus pretty limited genetically.

How expensive do you think the first seed grown clipeatas will be? Exactly.
 
  • #19
Errrr.................
A well known nurser owner
bought from that joker,
Yes if you really want to know
spend a few hours on CPUK :)
Please no PMs on the name :nono:
 
  • #20
Phissionkorps,

I was asking a simple question.

He obviously has plenty of money.

I seem to remember when a bunch of CP Enthusiasts got the "okay" to go harvest a few very rare Pinguicula seed pods, turns out they stomped all over the plants and took almost all of the seed pots, save very few, I suppose that's not a big deal since 2% will survive anyways. [/sarcasm]

I don't want to cause any fights but seriously, "oh, it's okay to only sell once", lets say he ONLY sells these ONCE and NEVER again, well then, it may have ruined the chance for a few more plants but won't decimate the entire population, but, that's probably not the case, the case with the Pinguicula is the most likely thing to happen.
 
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