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BP Oil Spill: Pensacola Beach, Perdido Bay

  • #61
I could say the same for "Dubya" and his "quick" response to the Katrina disaster......:censor:

But seriously, blaming the President isn't going to get us anywhere. If you don't like how things are being done, you are more than welcome to go and do it yourself in they way you want it to be done.

problem with Katrina was not Bush it was Nagin and the Army Corps of Engineers......Nagin had the more than enough warning, more than enough buses to get everyone out but he sat on his hands, looked to DC and said its your job.....the Corps was in charge of the levees and they didnt do the job they were paid to do, keep them up.....have dealt with the Corps up here with dam management and they will sit and lie to you though they know you know the truth.....

my point bout Obama was that alot of ppl say he should be doing something.....he knows bout as much about deep sea drilling as he does about rocket science....he aint no help.....the one thing he could do is wave the Jones Act so that foreign companies could come in and help....the Dutch are the world experts in oil spill clean up but they are having to waste time training Americans how to use their equipment rather than just getting to the clean up.....

---------- Post added at 03:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:26 PM ----------

What I am trying to say is that the President, nor BP themselves are to blame for this disaster.

If you ask me, the ones to blame are the designers and builders of the rig. They are the ones who took the short cuts, they are the ones that skipped here and skimmed there to make budget. They should be the ones to pay out of pocket.

BP was over seeing them and they were doing it to BP's specs..........
 
  • #62
BP was over seeing them and they were doing it to BP's specs..........
Ditto. BP had the final say. Like you said, they had no business drilling that deep into the earth.

What happens when large amounts of methane accumulates... It has already happened in a lake in Africa. We already know there is methane in the well in the gulf too since that is supposedly what caused the initial explosion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00GVHzZFM-s

I suppose that is the worse case scenario and probably won't happen, but it's a natural event that has happened before on a smaller scale.

Air quality at Vinice Station, Louisiana.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGxGVGiD3yk
 
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  • #63
This is a good example of what corporate greed and corruption will get you when the risks they are willing to take to save or make a few bucks explodes in thier faces. All companies do it, but the consequences depend on the nature of the business. Some would rather pay a fine rather than fix an issue because the fine is cheaper than the cost of fixing the problem. It is just the cost of doing business an executive will tell you. We have seen similar catastrophe's of different scales as a result. Look at the credit card industry for example. Heartland Payments, TJ MAXX, etc. Millions of credit card numbers were stolen due to lax security. Security was lax because it was too costly to overhaul thier systems. They knew what they had to do for the most part. However, it would be much simpler paying the fine for being out of compliance than to fix the problem. A calculated risk that businesses are willing to take sometimes at thier own expense, and sometimes at all of ours as well.

The sad thing is that it is everyone else that has to live with this mess and those who are responsible for it have the means to be largely unaffected by it personally. The company itself will also weather the storm because all it needs to do is declare bankruptcy when costs get too hefty and rebuild itself.

I personally think they should dismantle every last piece of BP and give it to the American people to repay the damage caused. Just as you cannot avoid certain debts from bankruptcy (ie: injury caused by drunk driving), there are certain debts businesses should not be able to avoid by declaring bankruptcy. Gross neglegence and excessive risks that result in catastrophy should be a few of them. I am no expert at law so perhaps there is already something in chapter 10 that states this. At least I think it is called chapter 10.
 
  • #64
If they do that, they'd better dismantle the idiots in our government who allowed them to do it too.
 
  • #65
If they do that, they'd better dismantle the idiots in our government who allowed them to do it too.

we are definatly on the same page on this.......im all for dismantling DC!
 
  • #66
Okay, guys, take a deep breath and count back from ten. Mindless hate isn't going to get anyone anywhere. Instead of blame, which will do nothing whatsoever, visit your nearest bog and do jumping jacks!
 
  • #67
nearest bog is 5 plus hours away...........
 
  • #68
We certainly have some common ground there, rattler.

Don't knock blame in every situation, silence. Blame for some issues is easy to see where to place it. I saw who is to blame for our media keeping the public in the dark; a company with a foreign CEO who thinks he can run our country and a spineless president who is allowing him to do so.

I don't think either rattler or I have any "mindless hate". It's well placed hate, joking. lol I don't hate BP, but I have a strong dislike for the company.
 
  • #69
They do have a point to a certain degree IMO. It is government that sets the policies and sets the fines for the most part. The government does have some blame in this. But I would not say it is solely the current administration who should be blamed. Corruption is a problem that has been going on since the beginning of time, however the corrupt and corrupted do seem to have the market cornered these days.

This is what one should expect when corporations have thier hands in government and have influence over it. Lobbyist, Policital groups, coalitions, blah, blah, blah... Whatever happened to by the people, for the people.
 
  • #70
It's not that blame isn't okay is some situations, I just can't stand the HATE. The hate is what keeps people from being rational and instead beating down on one or two people instead of being constructive. Currently those people are trying to make amends. Unless they did something like this truly on purpose, there shouldn't be hate. I dislike how this came to be too, with BP's clearance policies, but if people stay in a blinding rage, what will that achieve?
 
  • #71
Whatever happened to by the people, for the people.
I think that went out the window long ago. That was before double pane technology and it had too easy of a time getting out...

All kidding aside, out gov has widely conflicting interests and greed always wins out with them.
 
  • #72
no real hate from me......Indiana and i just have different perspectives on the situation......did BP screw up? yes they did, most definitely....they got in over their heads......but part of the reason they went there is cause shallow water drilling has been stopped......they were looking to expand and went the only direction allowed by law.....they got sloppy in a place that has lil in the way of forgiveness and it bit them in the rear.....but you dont make big bucks unless you take risks and have a hard time faulting them for that....may not agree with how they did it but cant fault them for taking the risk of drilling in 5000 feet of water.....

as far as the natural disaster.......the mexican spill in the 70's showed us that the ecosystem will bounce back in short order.......and we have alot more technology today to help out......as i said the big theing the gulf has over the alaskan coast during valdez is that the water and sediment in the gulf is teaming with crude eating micro organisms that multiply fast in the warm water because crude naturally seeps from the floor of the gulf....Alaska didnt have that.......and the mexican spill dumped it out at a faster rate than this one.....the gulf will recover with in my fathers life time let alone mine or my kids.....

should things be put in place to keep this from happening again? definitely but there are always risks......it will prolly happen again reguardless of how safe we try to be.....crap happens......

what scares me isnt the drilling in US waters.....its the drilling off Cuba by companies that make BP's safety and accident record look top notch.....and there aint a darn thing we can do about it.....
 
  • #73
From the stats I've heard, this BP spill makes the Exxon spill look like a puddle. There's still oil just beneath the sand in Prince William Sound now over 20 years after the spill. So I should hope to gosh the gulf has more oil eating microbes. It's going to need it.

As for that Mexican spill in the 70s, it was on the news the other night that they are still finding tar balls from that one.
 
  • #74
what scares me isnt the drilling in US waters.....its the drilling off Cuba by companies that make BP's safety and accident record look top notch......
Currently my concerns (about drilling) are in Arctic Ocean waters & subsalt (like offshore Brazil).

While several in this thread (& in the media) say that BP didn't have the expertise to drill in deepwater (a concept I'd probably debate), the realities are that oil companies must push into uncharted areas in attempts to locate new sources of oil. As part of the global-oil-using community, we seem quite content to believe (erroneously btw) that the Saudi's can & will continue to pump massive amounts of oil from their fields forever. As oil companies move further & further away from their existing knowledge base, the challenges mount and, as we've seen with the Deepwater Horizon, mistakes can have almost unimaginable consequences. Both subsalt & arctic drilling have challenges that dwarf what we've seen here.... :0o:
 
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  • #75
as for still finding tar balls......there have been tar balls since before anyone ever drilled for oil in the gulf.....about 5,000 barrels of oil a day seep out of the floor of the gulf naturally and would without mans interference.......

RL......Obama recently pushed through giving a Brazilian company a big loan to do that subsalt drilling off their shores......with oil, Obama is as bad as Bush......he just wants to pay to have it done in someone elses back yard...
 
  • #76
... Obama is as bad as Bush......he just wants to pay to have it done in someone elses back yard...
While i wasn't a fan of Bush, my issue with him & drilling (or business in general) wasn't that he promoted business / drilling, it was that he did it by removing the safeguards (environmental, financial, etc). We obviously want & need businesses to do well to create jobs & employ people. However, as I learned during the Reagan years (& firsthand in southern Louisiana oil fields), unconstrained businesses will tend to act in their own best interest to produce profit (both as a business & to line the pockets of the upper tier of 'owners/officers'). So businesses per se are not evil, they just need to have guidelines under which to operate (& of course, enforcement of those guidelines).

On the subsalt exploration & oil production - I didn't say that I was against it, i just wanted to bring it up because the unknowns & potential hazards are much larger with it than with existing production. Based on my experience & learnings gained from recent events, I would like to have people other than those who stand to get insanely rich involved in critical decisions involving exploration / production & the concomitant safeguards.
 
  • #77
It seems that in a rather short time,
we have become dependent on oil as an energy source
to the point where we cannot picture ourselves existing without it.
(We are in a worse place than a strung out drug addict!)

Indeed, the energy contained within oil is vastly superior to that of previous energy sources such as coal or wood. (Picture a coal fueled rocket shooting to the moon!)

Because of the potential that oil has brought to us, and all the uses it now has, our way of life has become based on having and using it! (We no longer live close enough to work to walk or ride a bike or even a horse! Most people don't even like taking a train! And in the past 5 years, I only saw one person who owned and used a scissor type push mower (The kind I grew up with that everyone used! NO gas needed!).
We have spread across the country with our homes, no longer gathering into cities and towns to make getting to work and the local store possible. (People don't even have "local stores" anymore, as the big chains put them out of business!) And even growing, supplying, production and distribution of food, to support feeding all the people in this country, is greatly dependent on oil and the "high energy" resource it is to us and our ways of doing things.

Indeed, civilization as we know it, and its ability to continue to function is BASED on the availability and use of oil! Without major, radical changes to our man made environment and our way of living and doing things, there is no way to survive without it! We won't even be able to feed ourselves!
Until changes ARE made (and possibly with the help of new discoveries or/and new ways of using existing (or new) energy resources), we are as dependent on oil to sustain our life as we are on air to breath or water to drink!
Realize, it didn't used to always be this way! It doesn't HAVE to be this way! And that the more we make use of oil and its ability to "make our lives easier and better", the more we are making ourselves dependent on it to even survive.
Oops! Already happened! Okay, so now what?
Oh! Take even bigger risks to get more oil! Huh? Oh that's a great answer! Possibly destroy our environment and many of the other miraculous life forms in it, in order to attempt to preserve a way of life that can't go on forever anyway?!
Does anyone see anything wrong with this way of thinking?
What... "Give me oil or give me death"! Is that our new motto to live by?

I am not saying that risks should not be taken, but these "experts" are not using their brains. The political structure is not doing its job, the media is not to be trusted to inform us responsibly, and greed and corruption are running thru every branch of our political and corporate system.

I am not suggesting that things are hopeless, but the fingers keep pointing at everyone else. No one is pointing the finger at themselves and saying "I"!..., "I screwed up"! or "I lied...I was greedy, I don't care about a bunch of birds or plants, I care more about my job, my family, my way of life than I do about the planet or the environment, so long as it isn't in MY yard!"

I am not saying we need some bleeding heart people who won't allow any risks to be taken, or decisions to be made that might result in an accident or mishap. Indeed the world is a big place with lots of mouths to feed and lots of lives to live. But remember, we are not alone. Every plant and animal depends on US to not screw up THEIR lives and THEIR environment. They are not smart enough to avoid the oil spill, (if they even can, as marine creatures have little choice. After all, in a way it is their "air" we have polluted!)

The thing I am wanting and expecting, is for people in every position, whether its the President of the US, the people at the oil companies, the people who own "X"-mart, even the people who live down the street.... whoever you are, where ever you are... USE YOUR BRAINS AND GET SOME COMMON SENSE! There are ways to avoid reckless behavior and risks, you can still make a living and a profit without being greedy, and if getting some oil from a place that is too big a risk & that you can't fix if an accident does happen, then DON'T!
Maybe spend some resources finding or developing something else that can supply our energy needs. Or help change our needs to lessen them!
Individuals can do this! Turn off the lights if you aren't using them! Don't dump toxic things down the sewer or drain! If you can recycle, do it!
Jeez people, this is your environment! Expecting someone else to clean up after you, or mother nature to take care of it, is gross negligence and self centered arrogance. Grow up!

And indeed, if companies don't comply, or do pollute, they need to clean it up, or be heavily fined or completely put out of business. The planet doesn't need them and they are the worst offenders, as there is no ONE to hold accountable. But in that case, they all are accountable!

Okay, I am done ranting again...for now.
I know it is a waste of time anyway... but it does get it off my chest.
What disturbs me most, is that there are even people here on TF, who have "less than expected standards" of looking at and dealing with our "natural surroundings". (And I am not just referring to this thread when I say that.) I am by far, NOT over the top about not disturbing our environment, or collecting plants, or changing the environment... but again some of the things I see people doing or suggesting is a bit foolish, even for me. (It is one thing to collect a couple plants for yourself, and then raise them to trade with, but quite another to start digging out bags of plants in which to trade with and/or sell.)

And just because an ecosystem will recover from our doings, does NOT make it okay for us to keep pushing it/expecting it to do so, nor have a cavaliar attitude about it!
We are VERY fortunate that nature has been able to repair itself when WE screw up, and should NOT take that for granted.... for some day it may not be able to clean up our mess! What then?
I myself would rather NOT find out!

(At least these "standards" that I see people expressing tell me a lot about the person, and what they are made of!)
Well again, good luck all.

(By the way, nice fact gathering Indy)
Oh yea...
Does anyone know how much oil is needed to be dumped into the Gulf in order to totally destroy the ecosystem to the point where it won't be able to recover? I am just curious if anyone here does know!
 
  • #78
That is a nice level headed response. I couldn't agree more.
 
  • #79
nearest bog is 5 plus hours away...........

Not true. The gulf coast is full of cp's. I know some oil has washed up in Destin Beach, fl. I've personally seen cp's in Destin Beach.
 
  • #80
The "5 hours away from the gulf for the nearest CP" comment comes as no surprise,
considering the other "opinions" I have read here on this thread.

But then, giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming that I am reading the google map wrong,
can someone give a lookie to the information I found in less than a minute on the net, and tell me
if this place is perhaps a bit closer than 5 hours away. (I am assuming one is driving and not walking, although again, I am not sure about the distance involved.) ??? :blush:

Tarkiln Bayou Preserve State Park
12301 Gulf Beach Highway
Pensacola, Florida 32507

http://www.floridastateparks.org/tarkilnbayou/default.cfm

Tarkiln Bayou Preserve is home to four species of endangered pitcher plants, as well as other rare and endangered plant species. The rare, carnivorous white-top pitcher plant is unique to the Gulf Coast and found only between the Apalachicola and Mississippi rivers. Almost 100 other rare plants and animals depend on the wet prairie habitat, including the alligator snapping turtle, sweet pitcher plant, and Chapman's butterwort.

Wait a minute... we aren't referring to the distance as if from the exact position in the gulf where the "hole" spewing oil is, compared to the shoreline or the position of the State Preserve I list below, are we?
If so then yea, it would take me more than 5 hours to swim that distance! If that is what you are saying, then oops, I am sorry I misunderstood! I guess my brain doesn't work that way! I bet BP is looking for that sort of wisdom and could use more of that type of ingenious supervisors and managers on their payroll. :crazy:

These viewpoints are of the sort that I am questioning and wondering about in the first place. Anyone here have relatives we don't know about that actually work for BP?
I really don't understand how someone who loves CP's, nature, animals, the environment, etc. can possibly defend and support the behavior of ANYONE involved in this fiasco.
There is a difference also between the people who are at least trying to do SOME good and make regulations that may get companies to be at least somewhat responsible and reasonable in their actions, and the people and companies who blatantly take short cuts, payoffs, and especially unreasonable risks.
IF, as was brought up, that deep well drilling is a bad risk, then it should NOT have been done! Period! You can't blame the "save the world types" who stopped the shallow wells for your actions either. Get it changed! PROVE the needs and risks and costs. Don't just justify your reckless actions with "well they wouldn't let me drill where I wanted to, so I drilled where it was unsafe and where I had no means to prevent an accident (is that true?), and in a way that I could not correct/fix/stop an oil leak if one should occur! (Wait a minute.... that isn't the "save the world types" who cut corners or designed a drilling system that had no "off" valve right at its first basic part of the system! DUH! Who in their right mind drills a hole for oil, water or whatever without having a way to shut it off should an accident occur!

I can see who the business minded civilized people are here. To think that "the realities are that oil companies must push into uncharted areas in attempts to locate new sources of oil" is a very narrow, tunnel vision of a viewpoint to take on things. The oil companies do what the oil companies want to do, unless held back by some political of financial means.
The only thing the oil companies MUST do, is make more money for themselves! (You really think they are doing this as a service to us all so we can drive our cars to work! Wow, they must be a bunch of self sacrificing saints!) :scratch:

One thing that amazes me, is all the viewpoints that have come from this. I guess it verifies for me why I don't have a lot of friends or fit into a lot of "groups". But then, I kinda like that in view of what I see.:glare:

Good luck all! Gonna need it! :wave:
The oil is still spewing and the companies are drilling new holes for tomorrows "accidents"!
 
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