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Thread: Major seed poaching

  1. #33
    Eats genetically engineered tomatoes Sig's Avatar
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    Hate to revive a thread, but he's now using "critically endangered" as a SELLING POINT. I asked if he had location data, and he said "collect from north sumatra mountain".

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI...:X:RTQ:US:1123

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  2. #34
    villosaholic Heli's Avatar
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    Reportinated!

  3. #35
    richjam1986's Avatar
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    Whether or not he's a poacher (which I think he probably is) I think even his shipping policy is questionable, so I reported his Nepenthes items. If they leave you reasonable doubt as to their being legal or not, and it leaves you uneasy (as it does me), I think they shouldn't be doing it. He should show that he is not a poacher, and is a responsible and trustworthy businessman with regards to species sustainability in the wild. Otherwise, I won't support his efforts.
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  4. #36
    mass's Avatar
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    I haven't read a single post of this thread. But I've gotta ask the obvious.. as long as some seeds are left to keep the wild population going. Is there such thing as seed poaching? I mean.. how else are we supposed to get these plants into the hobby without poaching the plants themselves?

  5. #37
    i dont do pots. amphirion's Avatar
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    yes there is....especially when involving plants such as nepenthes, which are dioecious....
    however, semantics, semantics....
    "poaching" depends on context of national/international regulations and local policies, such as tribal lands having their own local laws that supersede national policies, etc etc...

    but here are some reasons why one should reconsider CONTINUAL harvesting of nepenthes seed from the wild:

    1) flowering cycle is unknown---as far as we know, there are no noticeable triggers that synchronize male and female plants of the same species to flower together. in cultivation, flower stalks tend to form "randomly" and so the chances of a flowering event between two plants of the same species AND complimentary genders is some what of a rare event.

    2) small isolated populations--- many of these species are known to grow on mountainsides, cliff faces, as well as the occasional roadside. Plants are somewhat more resilient to inbreeding depression than animals, but nevertheless, it does happen. by removing seeds from the wild, especially in small isolated populations, you are effectively removing a good chunk of the gene pool. keep in mind that it is not only about the kinds of genes that are in the gene pool but also their combinations, by which we gain variance. ICPS advocates only removing a certain percentage of seed from a population only when certain criteria are met.

    3) high seed mortality rate---pretty self explanatory---lots of seed sown, but very few make it to adulthood. Removing seed from the wild means even less will make it to adulthood.

    the necessary evil (my personal proposal): in a perfect world, there should only be a handful of seed harvesting events in order to introduce the plants into cultivation, especially with the use of TC, and these seed should be given to individuals/businesses with the time, means, and money to propagate them. These individuals should be TC'ing ALL the plants that successfully germinate, resulting in mass production for collectors, but also for conservation efforts. In the mean time, while selling TC'ed plants, these individuals should be growing each individual clone up to adulthood, so that plant breeding programs are able to take place. plus, there's a bonus of introducing seed grown plant sales (WITH LOCATION DATA ) from time to time without adding pressure to wild populations... but who's to say they arent doing that now?

    @Sig: have you considered that the response that he gave you might be for legitimate reasons? ""collect from north sumatra mountain" could mean that he is unwilling to release the location of the population, which, if released, would encourage more individuals to poach from the site?
    Last edited by amphirion; 10-25-2011 at 10:31 AM.

  6. #38
    Charlatan lizasaur's Avatar
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    Mm...but would someone doing it for the "greater good" you described be using it's conservation status as a selling point? And, wouldn't 24 pods be overkill in a struggling population where every potential seedling matters?

  7. #39
    i dont do pots. amphirion's Avatar
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    @liz: oh im not claiming that this guy has conservation on the forefront of his mind...im sure it's more of his lively hood--but conservation is the side-effect. if everyone knows his harvesting ground, then he loses because that would mean a decrease in his lively hood, both immediate and long term. i guess i was misleading by saying "legitimate reasons" sorry about that.

    24 pods also does seem like a huge amount...but unfortunately, i would say we dont have the appropriate context to judge? are the seeds harvested from a local, isolated population or from a sustainable population? how many pods are on one flowerstalk? how many female flowerstalks are present in the area?

    maybe they'll end up being like white cloud minnows....staple for aquarium fish stores, but almost completely extinct in the wild...

  8. #40
    BigBella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amphirion View Post
    3) high seed mortality rate---pretty self explanatory---lots of seed sown, but very few make it to adulthood. Removing seed from the wild means even less will make it to adulthood.
    I am reminded of the case of Paphiopedilum sanderianum, a rare orchid species -- now under wider cultivation -- once thought extinct in the wild, and championed by CITES for conservation; it was listed on Appendix I (along with Nepenthes rajah as it so happens), as being most endangered. Suddenly, trade in pollen, flowers, or any portion of the plant became highly illegal a decade ago; though a single seedpod of the species -- under proper cultivation -- could produce upwards of ten thousand seedlings annually (just those conventionally grown, not to mention multiplication with tissue culture). The species can produce almost twenty pods per plant.

    That even monitored collection is disallowed, causes more harm than good; and bolsters its smuggled value. The sooner that those species enter cultivation the better, since it is unlikely that many of their growing areas will persist; and allowing for limited collection will reduce incidents of poaching . . .
    Last edited by BigBella; 10-25-2011 at 11:44 PM.
    “Sì perché l'autorità dell'opinione di mille nelle scienze non val per una scintilla di ragione di un solo . . ."

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