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Major seed poaching

  • #21
In terms of moral laws, I wouldn't be nearly as annoyed if it was, say, 100 seeds, as are a couple of other listings. But this guy has some 20 different listings at any time with quantities up to the tens of thousands. If someone offered me 50 seeds that they already picked, I would probably accept it. But fifteen thousand? That's nuts.

to put things in perspective a single plant can produce quite a few seeds.....you could prolly hit 15,000 in under 20 stalks if they are large ones.....
 
  • #23
My two cents...

I personally would not buy from this or any other person overseas because I could not in good conscience do so knowing I am not doing so legally on my side. The transaction would never get so far as to question whether or not the seller actually collected them legally.

I think if we all take care of our own arses when it comes to right and wrong, the wrong will have much less opportunity for enterprise.

Not directed towards anyone, just my two cents.
 
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  • #24
What ever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt?

I'm pretty sure it's beyond reasonable doubt... he SAYS he wild collected them, and he SAYS he'll mark them to fool customs, and the listings themselves of 15,000 seeds shows that he's selling them for personal gain. If that isn't "Guilty", I don't know what is.
 
  • #25
I'm pretty sure it's beyond reasonable doubt... he SAYS he wild collected them, and he SAYS he'll mark them to fool customs, and the listings themselves of 15,000 seeds shows that he's selling them for personal gain. If that isn't "Guilty", I don't know what is.

Wait... nowhere in there do I see the words "Wild collected". The customs statement... well, sometimes customs gets incredibly finicky about the interpretation of the law. I once had a package destroyed because it said 'fur' in the declaration of contents. Nevermind that the word was immediately preceded by the qualifier 'fake'.

Do you think that the poached the other 520 transactions that he's done via eBay?

I mean, you could be right and this guy could be a poacher, but I don't think that you have enough information to make that decision.

Just saying.
 
  • #26
How do you know the seller doesn't have a permit to collect and sell the seed? Maybe you don't even need a permit, I have no idea what the laws are in Indonesia.
 
  • #27
"NEPENTHES BICALCARATA 'RED'
Collect from Western Borneo ( Kalimantan )
- 15.000+ SEEDS -

HARVESTED IN MAY 2011 - stored in refrigerator

Genuine and FRESH GUARRANTED direct from INDONESIA ( the heaven of Nepenthes )

"I DO NOT HELD ANY RESPONSIBILITY IF YOU SEEDS SEIZE/CONFISCATED/DESTROY BY YOUR COUNTRY'S CUSTOM !

BUT DON'T WORRY, I WILL DECLARE THIS ITEM AS CRAFTING MATERIAL SO IT WILL PASS THE CUSTOM ( IT WORKS TO USA AND ALMOST COUNTRIES"

I'm amazed that people think this guy is being legal. At the very, very, least, even by the extremely remote chance he "has a permit", he is mass shipping seeds without proper documentation. At the very least.

And yes, all his listings say "collected from ____", so I do think they're all poached... unless he just happens to have property with mature plants in 40 different locations in Indonesia.
 
  • #28
Actually, nobody said that he was legal; they just don't know.

silenceisgod said:
And yes, all his listings say "collected from ____", so I do think they're all poached... unless he just happens to have property with mature plants in 40 different locations in Indonesia.

I highly doubt that somebody in Indonesia would take the time to go to 40 different locations just to get seed, trust me, I'm Indonesian, and it's really hard to get by here and there. He could just own the plants as well, since his climate is the "land of nepenthes" then his plants must be really well grown. Even if it is illegal to poach seeds in Indonesia, it's a corrupted country - he could easily bribe the people who found him while he was poaching and just continue on his merry way. As for shipping out of his country - that's his deal, illegal or not, but if it is successful, then it's on the shoulders of the person who ordered from wherever country.

I highly doubt somebody would buy 15,000 seeds for 550$.
 
  • #29
I am only talking about what I know for sure. I know of a $2500 fine for the buyer(box instead of envelope, though) and it could have gone uo to 10K.

Cheers,

Joe

You do not want to risk getting these mislabled to hide what's really in the package. Trust me on this one.

Cheers,

Joe
 
  • #30
The whole enterprise sounds kind of seedy.
 
  • #31
:0o::0o: I just bought 50 mirablis var etchinostoma from him...
Man, I just sowed the seeds today. I feel so bad :cry:
His name in Jan Medan or something like that right??
 
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  • #32
Well I always look at the seed offers on ebay and I can't remember the name of the seller but it said "I don't dig up plants but I take cuttings and pitchers for propagation and example" this is why so many species of nepenthes are endangered since a cutting for him is probably cutting a large section of of the vine. Personally I feel it's wrong to take seeds but cutting and harming mature plants is just taking it too far Especially since many species are relatively inexpensive and widely available. This kind of thing just makes me wonder why these people can't get in any trouble for poaching or something!!
 
  • #34
Reportinated!
 
  • #35
Whether or not he's a poacher (which I think he probably is) I think even his shipping policy is questionable, so I reported his Nepenthes items. If they leave you reasonable doubt as to their being legal or not, and it leaves you uneasy (as it does me), I think they shouldn't be doing it. He should show that he is not a poacher, and is a responsible and trustworthy businessman with regards to species sustainability in the wild. Otherwise, I won't support his efforts.
 
  • #36
I haven't read a single post of this thread. But I've gotta ask the obvious.. as long as some seeds are left to keep the wild population going. Is there such thing as seed poaching? I mean.. how else are we supposed to get these plants into the hobby without poaching the plants themselves?
 
  • #37
yes there is....especially when involving plants such as nepenthes, which are dioecious....
however, semantics, semantics....
"poaching" depends on context of national/international regulations and local policies, such as tribal lands having their own local laws that supersede national policies, etc etc...

but here are some reasons why one should reconsider CONTINUAL harvesting of nepenthes seed from the wild:

1) flowering cycle is unknown---as far as we know, there are no noticeable triggers that synchronize male and female plants of the same species to flower together. in cultivation, flower stalks tend to form "randomly" and so the chances of a flowering event between two plants of the same species AND complimentary genders is some what of a rare event.

2) small isolated populations--- many of these species are known to grow on mountainsides, cliff faces, as well as the occasional roadside. Plants are somewhat more resilient to inbreeding depression than animals, but nevertheless, it does happen. by removing seeds from the wild, especially in small isolated populations, you are effectively removing a good chunk of the gene pool. keep in mind that it is not only about the kinds of genes that are in the gene pool but also their combinations, by which we gain variance. ICPS advocates only removing a certain percentage of seed from a population only when certain criteria are met.

3) high seed mortality rate---pretty self explanatory---lots of seed sown, but very few make it to adulthood. Removing seed from the wild means even less will make it to adulthood.

the necessary evil (my personal proposal): in a perfect world, there should only be a handful of seed harvesting events in order to introduce the plants into cultivation, especially with the use of TC, and these seed should be given to individuals/businesses with the time, means, and money to propagate them. These individuals should be TC'ing ALL the plants that successfully germinate, resulting in mass production for collectors, but also for conservation efforts. In the mean time, while selling TC'ed plants, these individuals should be growing each individual clone up to adulthood, so that plant breeding programs are able to take place. plus, there's a bonus of introducing seed grown plant sales (WITH LOCATION DATA :laaa:) from time to time without adding pressure to wild populations... but who's to say they arent doing that now?

@Sig: have you considered that the response that he gave you might be for legitimate reasons? ""collect from north sumatra mountain" could mean that he is unwilling to release the location of the population, which, if released, would encourage more individuals to poach from the site?
 
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  • #38
Mm...but would someone doing it for the "greater good" you described be using it's conservation status as a selling point? And, wouldn't 24 pods be overkill in a struggling population where every potential seedling matters?
 
  • #39
@liz: oh im not claiming that this guy has conservation on the forefront of his mind...im sure it's more of his lively hood--but conservation is the side-effect. if everyone knows his harvesting ground, then he loses because that would mean a decrease in his lively hood, both immediate and long term. i guess i was misleading by saying "legitimate reasons" sorry about that.

24 pods also does seem like a huge amount...but unfortunately, i would say we dont have the appropriate context to judge? are the seeds harvested from a local, isolated population or from a sustainable population? how many pods are on one flowerstalk? how many female flowerstalks are present in the area?

maybe they'll end up being like white cloud minnows....staple for aquarium fish stores, but almost completely extinct in the wild...
 
  • #40
3) high seed mortality rate---pretty self explanatory---lots of seed sown, but very few make it to adulthood. Removing seed from the wild means even less will make it to adulthood.

I am reminded of the case of Paphiopedilum sanderianum, a rare orchid species -- now under wider cultivation -- once thought extinct in the wild, and championed by CITES for conservation; it was listed on Appendix I (along with Nepenthes rajah as it so happens), as being most endangered. Suddenly, trade in pollen, flowers, or any portion of the plant became highly illegal a decade ago; though a single seedpod of the species -- under proper cultivation -- could produce upwards of ten thousand seedlings annually (just those conventionally grown, not to mention multiplication with tissue culture). The species can produce almost twenty pods per plant.

That even monitored collection is disallowed, causes more harm than good; and bolsters its smuggled value. The sooner that those species enter cultivation the better, since it is unlikely that many of their growing areas will persist; and allowing for limited collection will reduce incidents of poaching . . .
 
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