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Thread: Major seed poaching

  1. #1
    Eats genetically engineered tomatoes Sig's Avatar
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    Angry Major seed poaching

    Searching for nep seeds, I found a ton of listings by this guy. His location is Indonesia, and he says he'll label the seeds as crafting material (a major cites violation right there.) While he *might* have had a good personal collection with plants native to indonesia, this listing for FIFTEEN THOUSAND bicalcarata seeds just SCREAMS "poacher". He has dozens of listings and hundreds of sales... This guy needs to be taken off ebay, even if it's just long enough to save some plants from him.

    Please take a minute to report him, enough should at least get him suspended.
    Formerly known as Silenceisgod!

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    Aristoloingulamata Dexenthes's Avatar
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    I agree, I am saddened that ebay has turned into a hive of seed poachers. I've seen the transition get worse and worse in just the last year. It's even sadder that some of us in the hobby continue to give people like this a reason to to do what they do.
    LOOKING FOR: N. (argentii x bicalcarata) x {[(lingulata x edwardsiana) x (naga x hamata)] x [(klossii x undulatifolia) x (aristolochioides x rajah)]} Growlist: http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=124586

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    Hello, I must be going... Not a Number's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silenceisgod View Post
    His location is Indonesia, and he says he'll label the seeds as crafting material (a major cites violation right there.)
    Not really. Let's look at the CITES Appendix I, II, and III

    For Nepenthes:
    Appendix I: N. khasiana and N. raja
    Appendix II: N. spp #4 (except species included in Appendix I)

    Note #4:
    #4 All parts and derivatives, except:
    a) seeds (including seedpods of Orchidaceae), spores and pollen (including pollinia). The exemption does not apply to seeds from Cactaceae spp. exported from Mexico, and to seeds from Beccariophoenix madagascariensis and Neodypsis decaryi exported from Madagascar;
    b) seedling or tissue cultures obtained in vitro, in solid or liquid media, transported in sterile containers;
    c) cut flowers of artificially propagated plants;
    d) fruits, and parts and derivatives thereof, of naturalized or artificially propagated plants of the genus Vanilla (Orchidaceae) and of the family Cactaceae;
    e) stems, flowers, and parts and derivatives thereof, of naturalized or artificially propagated plants of the genera Opuntia subgenus Opuntia and Selenicereus (Cactaceae); and
    f) finished products of Euphorbia antisyphilitica packaged and ready for retail trade.
    So only seed for N. khasiana and N. raja are subject to CITES restrictions. Receiving seed declared as "Craft Items" at worst would be violations of US custom and Plant Protection and Quarantine laws. If the Indonesian authorities were to inspect the package and the shipper was in violation of any Indonesian laws they would go after the shipper. If the US authorities were to inspect the package they would go after the recipient for possibly smuggling, violation of Plant Protection and Quarantine regulations etc.

    As for the rest I have no idea what Indonesia's laws are reqarding Nepenthes or even poaching. Perhaps the seller owns land with Nepenthes on it or resells seed from other owners of private land.

    Report the seller as you feel you must but I doubt eBay will do anything.
    Grand Hotel... always the same. People come, people go. Nothing ever happens.

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    BigBella's Avatar
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    I am of two minds about the whole issue, since I know of people in Southeast Asia who have routinely collected seed from sites that were either eventually lost to logging, housing developments, or to the building of lavish resorts for Westerners. Seedpods of many species -- orchids in particular and some Nepenthes -- can yield upwards of ten thousand plants in a commercial setting; whereas, the tiniest fraction of that seed-set (typically seen in the single digits) ever reaches maturity in the wild, due to competition, grazing, disturbance -- any number of factors.

    One of the gravest issues is that CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species) makes no distinction between the differing reproductive strategies of elephants, whales and primroses (single births versus thousands or tens of thousands); and sometimes consigns seed and plant material to the same lists as ivory, rhinoceros horns, and tiger penises. The point has been made that it is perfectly legal to flood a habitat for a reservoir; to log entire forests for tropical wood for an ugly Ikea coffee table; to completely denude a hillside -- yet it is highly illegal to salvage or trade in anything from a site listed on CITES Appendix I. That includes seed, pollen, leaves -- even the importation of century-old herbarium specimens for study.

    I have a few seed-grown plants from a site in East Mindanao, from an area that has since been completely deforested. Had those species been listed with CITES, even the possession of those plants -- even though salvaged from bulldozers and chainsaws -- would be highly illegal . . .
    “Sì perché l'autorità dell'opinione di mille nelle scienze non val per una scintilla di ragione di un solo . . ."

    -- Galileo "Biff" Galilei

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    dashman's Avatar
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    @Bella
    Sort of reminds me of the quote...

    "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich and the poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." Anatole France

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    BigBella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dashman View Post
    @Bella
    Sort of reminds me of the quote...

    "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich and the poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." Anatole France
    Nice quote; though I think I prefer the Machiavelli line (heh, heh, heh) -- loyalty to a fellow countryman and all that . . .

    “Sì perché l'autorità dell'opinione di mille nelle scienze non val per una scintilla di ragione di un solo . . ."

    -- Galileo "Biff" Galilei

  7. #7
    jesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silenceisgod View Post
    Searching for nep seeds, I found a ton of listings by this guy. His location is Indonesia, and he says he'll label the seeds as crafting material (a major cites violation right there.)
    False accusation - malicious prosecution!

    Cites regulations are not involved while offering most Nepenthes seeds.
    Cites says for appendix II species:

    > All parts and derivatives, except:
    >
    > a) seeds ...

    Seeds of WA II species under CITES regulations are NOT protected by CITES.

    Whether the seeds are obtained by "poaching" or by "collecting wildflower seeds" has nothing to do with CITES or international laws.

    So before blaming the seller at eBay, you better think twice and find a better accusation than "a major cites violation" (which it isn't).

  8. #8
    An orchid fancier with a CP problem chibae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesse View Post
    False accusation - malicious prosecution!

    Cites regulations are not involved while offering most Nepenthes seeds.
    Cites says for appendix II species:

    > All parts and derivatives, except:
    >
    > a) seeds ...

    Seeds of WA II species under CITES regulations are NOT protected by CITES.

    Whether the seeds are obtained by "poaching" or by "collecting wildflower seeds" has nothing to do with CITES or international laws.

    So before blaming the seller at eBay, you better think twice and find a better accusation than "a major cites violation" (which it isn't).
    Calm down jessie..although the OP may be wrong in stating cites violation and poaching..the seller is offering to mark the seeds as craft itmes which is fraud.
    It's a tough life being a Sarracenia farmer
    My Grow List http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=123776

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