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Thread: Check this out

  1. #1
    God must have an interesting sense of humor Wesley's Avatar
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    Okee Giant

    Read the info on the plant. Is it legal to take the seed to do that, unless it is on your own property which I would assume they are not?

    Nope just checked locattion, they located in the U.K. Now they need to know an American who owns that particular property.
    ~Wes~

    My plants are going green to save the environment

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  2. #2
    SirKristoff is a poopiehead Ozzy's Avatar
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    I don't know the laws in Georgia, and I don't know the status of S. minor "Okiee Giant".
    If I get time this week, I'll look it up online.

  3. #3
    herenorthere's Avatar
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    I don't believe this myself, but I'll toss it out to the forum because I'd like to learn from the responses. What's the problem if someone like that company or its American "collector" takes seed from wild plants? Many thousands of plant can be propagated that way, not only saving plants from some poaching pressure, but also helping save the habitat from poachers stomping around digging plants. Taking it a step further, what's harm if someone walks out ahead of bulldozers and takes all the scarce species, without any paperwork.

    I always tune into the debates I've seen in a number of plant related places regarding the collection of scarce wild plants. I ordinarily use the negative word "poaching" instead of "collection", but one can also put a positive spin on it by calling it "rescue" or "salvage". Laws allow for salvage, but with lots of paperwork for scarce species. But I have a couple Cyp. acaule (pink ladyslipper) plants that were "salvaged" without paperwork, collected by two different people from land being developed. Granted, the species isn't endangered in the states where "poached", "collected", or "salvaged" (take your pick), but those plants could have just as easily been other species. No money changed hands and the plants were saved from an almost certain demise, but it's easy to consider them to be "poached".

    So, is seed collection bad (whether legal or not) and are my "salvaged" Cyp. acaules actually "poached"? Again, whether legal or not. I work for a regulatory agency and we enforce what the law says, but it sometimes doesn't line up well with what we'd really like to achieve.

    This same discussion happens again and again, but I'm always fascinated by it and have learned a lot from many people's answers.
    Bruce in CT

    Madness is something rare in individuals but in groups, parties, peoples, ages it is the rule. Friedrich Nietzsche

  4. #4
    Moderator Schmoderator Fluorescent fluorite, England PlantAKiss's Avatar
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    That's always a touchy issue. This subject was raging over on the CPUK forum as well. In fact I was discussing this today at lunch with a friend. She wanted to know what happened to people who collected plants not realizing they might be federally protected. Most people aren't aware of the laws (what few there are) protecting plants.

    There are an awful lot of grey areas. In fact, it seems that not too many people are truly clear on what the permits are, who can get them, what "rank" a plant is labeled ("plant of concern", "endangered", "protected") and what that means. Even law enforcement isn't too up on the matter and aren't they supposed to enforce the laws? Or is it some other agency? How many people TRULY get landowners permission? Who can get a permit? Who monitors all that to make sure the dealer are following all the rules? Ozzy discovered flytrap permits for field collecting costs all of $1...for a year. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html312/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif[/img] It seems to be an area that no one is too clear on.

    If a plant is rare but not federally protected...and you know its getting ready to be destroyed by development, then I can understand wanting to rescue it. And it would be a shame if paperwork caused such delay the plant was destroyed in the meantime. It would be great to either propagate it or re-establish it in a safer area. But even if its for personal enjoyment, its better than seeing it destroyed for good. With cypripediums, they take SO long to mature and flower and need such specific conditions to flourish...it would be a shame to see any removed for any reason other than a rescue from certain death.

    I think sensitive field collection of seed or plants can be alright if its to get the plant into cultivation to preserve it. But how much and how often? By whom? Who qualifies as being knowledgeable enough to do a "sensitive" collection? What is the size of the population you are collecting from? Does the plant seed easily as is the case with some drosera...or is it a plant like sarracenia that produces less seed, is harder to establish itself and takes a number of years to mature to where it can reproduce. What about plants that nature herself is destroying (fields overrun by brush choking out the plants who need burns to survive). So many factors!

    If a population is large...in the thousands, does that make it "more ok" to collect? But again if done too much and too often, it will eventually reduce that population. It is truly a complicated issue.

    I am against field collecting for profit. Such as a certain flytrap nursery who makes no bones about taking native field collected CPs to sell and/or propagate for profit. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html312/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif[/img] The flytrap population is too small and isolated for me to think that it is EVER an acceptable thing to do. Considering the entire world, its niche in nature is miniscule.

    Other CPs...like in Australia where plants may proliferate by the thousands and they aren't endangered....it still seems wrong to me. If money becomes involved, then the environment will be raped until the plants are no more. There will always be those who care more about making a buck than caring about preservation. And then you can get into issues like logging the dwindling rainforests. A lot of the logging is done by desperately poor natives who have no other way to put food on the table. When your family is starving and you have a choice of feeding your kids or saving a tree...what do you think the choice, understandbly, will be? Its a tough issue. Most don't want to see the destruction of such a beautiful and important ecosystem, but...the conservationists don't live there in desperately poor conditions. How can you fault the natives for trying to survive?

    Its a very complicated issue...a lot of variables. But as Tamlin preaches...the more the rare plants can be propagated and spread around, it will take the profit margin out of business or individual who may seek to acquire these plants from the wild to sell. If you can get a petiolaris plant for $3 vs. $30, then why bother to go to the expense of field collecting them. You can take the bang out of the buck by making them more easily obtainable by concerned and caring individuals.

    Thankfully scientific advances and better propagation techniques such as TC have helped greatly to protect these beautiful plants. In nature, plants will come and go. But its best if we humans don't hasten their extinction out of greed for the almighty dollar.

    Suzanne
    "Fox terriers are born with about four times as much original sin in them as other dogs." - Jerome K. Jerome

  5. #5

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    Hi. I was reading this thread, and have seen the plants along the drainage ditches going into the Okefenokee. They are like a roadside weed all along the road from Brunswick to Waycross. Any power line cut will have its cadre, and I have seen them on higher dry sites there. Parked in a school parking lot on a Sunday - try that today - to look at some. They aren't considered endangered in GA, and I suspect folks could legally collect seed with maybe a cheap permit - or maybe none at all. In the swamp itself they are of course protected, and permits would be difficult to impossible to come by. I doubt these are true "Okee Giants", as the supposed locality for these is said to be deep in the swamp, along with skeeters, Cottonmouths, 'Gators, Coral Snakes, and pine trees that wave back and forth when you step on their roots (many feet of water below you). [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html312/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif[/img]
    Even if not the true Giant, they would still be spectacular...
    Alex Netherton

  6. #6
    Nepenthes Specialist nepenthes gracilis's Avatar
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    Personally this is the way I feel about wild plants that are in potential danger. If the plant is in certain death and you know what you are doing dig it up and relocate it. If the plant is in questionable danger contact the development people that are in charge of the project area and see what they have to say, also show them the plant or plants you are concerned about. If the plants are not in any danger but are doing poorly contact the state agency responsible for plants, for me it would be the APA (Adirondack park Association) or the DEC (Dept. of Environmental Conservation).

    I currently have a situation myself....

    There is an enormous clump of Cyp. reginae plants and I mean enormous probably 4 to 5 feet in width and 2 to 3 feet tall colony of plants about 1 foot away from the STATE MOWING PATH. 1 foot isn't very far on the ground.....that mower could easily turn thier way and...well you know the rest. Another thing that puzzles me is thier tolerance to the road salt used in the winter months! They are right in a wettish ditchy area and I know that the salt leeches and even gets thrown there in the snow from the plows and it has to contact the plants and roots....yet again there is water flowing over thier roots to a nearby drainage culvert. Any ideas? Thanks. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html312/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img]

  7. #7
    SirKristoff is a poopiehead Ozzy's Avatar
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    Just off the top of my head, I would think that the first thing to do is to contact the DOT that is in charge of that area, since the most immediate threat is from them. Let them know the situation and give them the exact location so that they can maybe watch out for them until a more permanent long term solution is put in place.
    If nothing has happened before spring maybe you could buy some of the orange net barrier and place it around the orchids. That could also bring unwanted attention to them, So you need to decide which is the greater risk, the dot or possible poachers.

  8. #8
    Nepenthes Specialist nepenthes gracilis's Avatar
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    Hi Ozzy, well my father works for the DOT so perhaps he could get in touch with the Township of Fine DOT or just the township itself.

    Another thing I forgot to mention is I belive it might be private property and the owner is related to a friend of ours whom I may be able to contact. Thing is that the plants have been there a darn long time. One of the slipper flowers was 2 inches across! So they must have had a darn good time to establish that colony.

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