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where is everyone here?
- Thread starter Finch
- Start date
Well, our board moderator Ozzy has been on leave with some serious family health concerns, and Dr. Barry Rice is often away on ICPS business.
You do raise a good point though. The conservation aspect of CP can't outcompete the trade forum, but I guess this is just human nature.
Life has a way of impinging on the best of intentions. It's hard to make the space in which to care, or find inspiration towards action when you have to work the nine to five, deal with emotional and health issues, or fight the elements. Life gets in the way, and meanwhile another population gets the bull dozer routine as we "progress".
Maybe this is a microcosmic reflection of the macroscopic trend in our consumer society: although we know the problems, we cannot act in a concerted fashion so as to change them.
Why does the environment always end up as the loser in the attention race or political debate? I would welcome a change in the political climate that would place the Earth First, just as I would welcome a solution as to how best popularize this forum: but neither will be possible until individuals make a united and concerted effort to send the "We Care" message loud and clear, and stand up for what they hold in their hearts. I hope during the next election this will be a platform of concern, and will be addressed as such in the campaign.
I already know where my vote is going. I will absolutely favor any party that pledges to act on the behalf of the Earth in favor of any real or bogus promises of increased revenue, tax breaks, or any other "chicken in the pot" strategies. Tell me you will act to preserve our Earth, and I will cast my humble vote in your direction.
I'll even give taxes for the purpose, pay it out of my pocket al though it is true that we can spend a billion dollars a week on WAR, but not a fraction of this to conserving the Earth which is loaned to us by our children, not inherited from our fathers.
You do raise a good point though. The conservation aspect of CP can't outcompete the trade forum, but I guess this is just human nature.
Life has a way of impinging on the best of intentions. It's hard to make the space in which to care, or find inspiration towards action when you have to work the nine to five, deal with emotional and health issues, or fight the elements. Life gets in the way, and meanwhile another population gets the bull dozer routine as we "progress".
Maybe this is a microcosmic reflection of the macroscopic trend in our consumer society: although we know the problems, we cannot act in a concerted fashion so as to change them.
Why does the environment always end up as the loser in the attention race or political debate? I would welcome a change in the political climate that would place the Earth First, just as I would welcome a solution as to how best popularize this forum: but neither will be possible until individuals make a united and concerted effort to send the "We Care" message loud and clear, and stand up for what they hold in their hearts. I hope during the next election this will be a platform of concern, and will be addressed as such in the campaign.
I already know where my vote is going. I will absolutely favor any party that pledges to act on the behalf of the Earth in favor of any real or bogus promises of increased revenue, tax breaks, or any other "chicken in the pot" strategies. Tell me you will act to preserve our Earth, and I will cast my humble vote in your direction.
I'll even give taxes for the purpose, pay it out of my pocket al though it is true that we can spend a billion dollars a week on WAR, but not a fraction of this to conserving the Earth which is loaned to us by our children, not inherited from our fathers.
Doggone it Tamlin, must you always hit the nail on the head? I think maybe a comprehensive plan to preserve the plants would be in order, don't you? Yes, our Government pretends to give a darn, but we already know if it doesn't make them a dollar, they won't really do anything. Only in words, not in deeds. Perhaps a plan whose time is come should be presented after all for the general consideration of CP growers everywhere in the U.S. as we can do nothing for those overseas as yet. I think it is time for CP'ers everywhere to get off their dead rear ends, and think of a win-win situation, and not(as Barry Rice stated in a post on another forum) only a lose-lose one. The door is open William, go for it.
The only way to make preserving CPs a win-win is by raising money. This is America and the almighy dollar speaks or to quote Bob Dylan "Money doesn't talk it screams".
The best bet for all of us is to fund as best we can the existing CP consrvation efforts or to create a new organization directed specifically at preserving CPs around the world.
I would like to suggest a pinned topic listing conservation efforts we can all help along. I send a few extra bucks to the ICPS but I know I can do more. Everyone gets caught up in the day to day and its hard to seek out worthwhile groups that deserve our hard earned cash or our time. Volenteering is always an option.
Maybe Barry can weigh in on this when he has a chance.
Glenn
The best bet for all of us is to fund as best we can the existing CP consrvation efforts or to create a new organization directed specifically at preserving CPs around the world.
I would like to suggest a pinned topic listing conservation efforts we can all help along. I send a few extra bucks to the ICPS but I know I can do more. Everyone gets caught up in the day to day and its hard to seek out worthwhile groups that deserve our hard earned cash or our time. Volenteering is always an option.
Maybe Barry can weigh in on this when he has a chance.
Glenn
Finch
Whats it to ya?
If there is a conservation group for cp's, it should be closly linked to wetland protection groups and rainforest protection agencys for nepanthese. Perhaps if north American pitcher plant stands provide cover for nesting waterfowl ( i dont know if they do or not, but if) You may also get the backing of duck hunting groups that preserve habitats for their sport... i dont know if that would be a good or bad thing, tough.
Hi Finch, Bugweed, and hopefully the thousands of readers looking at this post:
Conservation can be seen in different ways.
Most of what we see as conservation depends on conserving the actual habitat where there plants grow, but there is also another strategy which aims at the conservation of biodiversity through Stewardship.
This is what we do as "good growers" of these plants. Mike King in the UK is a sterling example of what a dedicated grower can achieve, if they are willing to. Mike has a fantastic collection of Sarracenia, which he maintains at his personal expense. In such a collection, meticulously maintained and identified, lies the hope of the future.
http://www.mikeking64.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ssar/growlist.htm
This, too, is conservation.
I read the listserve debate, and Barry's lose/lose proposal. As it now stands, it's true. If we field collect, we place the plants in jeapordy. If we don't field collect, we have the horror of watching these plants get plowed under.
I personally feel that there is just no way that our officials are going to act. In this, they are no more guilty than we are for not raising a collective hue and cry DEMANDING that something be done. There are just too few of us to have clout. Sadly, money will always be the bottom line in these matters of habitat conservation.
What is needed is for there to be a NEW REVOLUTION of the People. We need a new Botanical Constitution: of the people and for the people.
Imagine for a moment, a National Collection of, say Sarracenia species (since these populations are being hit the hardest).
This collection could attempt to conserve biodiverse forms of these plants, much as Mike is doing in the UK.
If enough Sarracenia Growers banded together to form a National Collection, and sought to actively reproduce, increase and most importantly to share this material, this would at least offer some hope to the future.
Such conserved (and diverse) material would then be available for future (and hopefully more wise) CPers, both for their delight, and hopefully for eventual reintroduction. The problem with nurseries producing and selling from TC, is the diversity is shrinking even as the number of plants are increasing. We need that precious variability, and it is being lost to attrition.
If there could be a fusion between dedicated growers, and the scientific community who know where these populations are located, a sensitive one time collection from habitat could be made. This is in essence "putting it in the bank". This would be a true investment.
With the formation of such a dedicated body, there is a chance that it might find financial backing, grow, and become a resource of incomparable value. This is a win/win scenario. Even if the plants are lost in habitat, at least there is some chance that the genetic diversity will not fall to that sad fact.
This is conservation too, but it would require a fusion of many diverse elements in CP society.
Barry as argued against publicizing location data for these populations, in favor of allowing the plants to continue their tentative existence undisturbed. I too, favor this approach, but not until we have the material "in the bank". After this, there is no need for folk to make further collections. The material can be reproduced and distributed.
Benefits to the "little guy" would be immense. After all, these are OUR plants, and we should have every right to protect them as out conscience dictates. The fact remains that these populations simply can't take the impact of repeated collections. We can't all of us go out with this idea, and try to form our own "NAtional Collection". This is what is going on now. People WANT to steward these plants, and it is right and proper that they do.
We need to UNITE, and work with each other to do this work. Ego and profit motivation needs be set aside for the greater good. One for all, and all for One. The days when one could feel good about being the guy with the biggest collection should end, and this as soon as possible. If the plants are to survive, they must do so through the mechanisms of love and sharing.
I suggest as well, that when we talk about making a field collection, taking plants from their habitats, that this is an issue of personal LIBERTY, and as such, we also need a CONSTITUTION which will apply, without exclusivity, to ALL.
Nor is this "Ntional Collection" limited to only the U.S. We have the tools now in place to launch a concerted world wide effort on behalf of these plants we all love so dearly. These plants do not belong to the U.S. They belong to the world. Let there be no exclusivity: when it comes to the love of these plants, we are all a NATION.
We have now come to the plants darkest hour. We need a luminary to come forth, a leader. What is Don Schnell doing these days? He could be the George Washington of such a work, lend prestige to such a UNION. I can think of many other NAMES who's support could make such a work possible: folk that have been growing (and loving) these plants for all their long lives. The Great Wise Ones - and you know who you are! Let them sign the CONSTITUTION. I am only one small voice, and although I try to make a difference, I am not eternal. Nor is Don Schnell. We need to inspire another generation to take up this cause, but first WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING to inspire them, instead of crying into our pitcher plants, and flopping out hands about uselessly in the air!
The ICPS has been drifting in this direction as well as evidenced by their distribution program of several rare Sarracenia species last year. We have the resources of international forums, and CP Societies all easily reachable by internet communication. The tools are present. The need is evident. The skills are in place. We are UNITED in our common love for these species.
All that lacks is the spark.
SO, all you Sarracenia Growers with the BIG LISTS of meticulously recoreded and maintained collection data, THIS is what you have been saving that data for! Here is a purpose and a vindication for that rare plant you dug up that time....remember? You said it was to "preserve it". Now I am asking that you back that up with action. Are you willing to send a division to a central place where decicated growers will increase it a hundred times over, and will actively seek placement for it in world collections?
You scientific professionals out there, that have been studying population dynamics, genetic studies, physiology, statistics: you know where our TREASURE lies. Are you willing to collect some of this material, and "put it in the bank", just for once, or will you wait with heavy sighs as you feel the rumble of the dozers? They will come you know, and then for what purpose will your research be for once their subject is extinct?
You growers out there, yearning for these plants: are you willing to study and learn to grow these plants and become a Steward for your children's children? For this is for you: one out of many. Will you say "thank you" by taking up the work?
From what I have seen, I believe you certainly will. Although others have begun this WORK, it will be the little guy that will make all the DIFFERENCE.
You Nursery Growers, commercial dealers, and plant-sale-fund-raiser folk: will you too come aboard, and will you surrender your part of the TREASURE even if it cuts your own profit margins, in the name of the love you bear for these plants? You can hold back the rare plants for supply/demand profiteering, but only consider that right now, while you are still in your skin, you can make a difference in how far these plants are spread. There would be no competition in your lifetime by surrendering your rarest plant....it will take generations of work before there will be enough plants circulating to do that. Once you are Gone, that rare plant may be forgotten and lost. Will you continue to share as you have so often in the past?
I hope you will. All of you. Because I believe in the center of me, that this is the only real chance to conserve what millions of years of Cosmic Artwork has produced: a miracle of unsurpassed beauty and awe.
Please: All in favor say "AYE"
Give me your thought's. Help me make this Forum into the tool it can be. Let this be our Convention Hall, where we draft a "CP CONSTITUTION". Lets define the right's of the PEOPLE, and provide for our posterity by UNITING and forming a WORLD NATIONAL COLLECTION while we still have opportunity to still act, before the curtain falls on our individual (and aging) selves, or on the plants we all love.
Maybe we can't hold back the habitat attrition, but this much at least is possible, and this too is Conservation. Let's make the plants darkest hour into our finest hour!
My thanks to Bugweed who inspired this concept, and to the many others I have spoken with that share it.
Conservation can be seen in different ways.
Most of what we see as conservation depends on conserving the actual habitat where there plants grow, but there is also another strategy which aims at the conservation of biodiversity through Stewardship.
This is what we do as "good growers" of these plants. Mike King in the UK is a sterling example of what a dedicated grower can achieve, if they are willing to. Mike has a fantastic collection of Sarracenia, which he maintains at his personal expense. In such a collection, meticulously maintained and identified, lies the hope of the future.
http://www.mikeking64.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ssar/growlist.htm
This, too, is conservation.
I read the listserve debate, and Barry's lose/lose proposal. As it now stands, it's true. If we field collect, we place the plants in jeapordy. If we don't field collect, we have the horror of watching these plants get plowed under.
I personally feel that there is just no way that our officials are going to act. In this, they are no more guilty than we are for not raising a collective hue and cry DEMANDING that something be done. There are just too few of us to have clout. Sadly, money will always be the bottom line in these matters of habitat conservation.
What is needed is for there to be a NEW REVOLUTION of the People. We need a new Botanical Constitution: of the people and for the people.
Imagine for a moment, a National Collection of, say Sarracenia species (since these populations are being hit the hardest).
This collection could attempt to conserve biodiverse forms of these plants, much as Mike is doing in the UK.
If enough Sarracenia Growers banded together to form a National Collection, and sought to actively reproduce, increase and most importantly to share this material, this would at least offer some hope to the future.
Such conserved (and diverse) material would then be available for future (and hopefully more wise) CPers, both for their delight, and hopefully for eventual reintroduction. The problem with nurseries producing and selling from TC, is the diversity is shrinking even as the number of plants are increasing. We need that precious variability, and it is being lost to attrition.
If there could be a fusion between dedicated growers, and the scientific community who know where these populations are located, a sensitive one time collection from habitat could be made. This is in essence "putting it in the bank". This would be a true investment.
With the formation of such a dedicated body, there is a chance that it might find financial backing, grow, and become a resource of incomparable value. This is a win/win scenario. Even if the plants are lost in habitat, at least there is some chance that the genetic diversity will not fall to that sad fact.
This is conservation too, but it would require a fusion of many diverse elements in CP society.
Barry as argued against publicizing location data for these populations, in favor of allowing the plants to continue their tentative existence undisturbed. I too, favor this approach, but not until we have the material "in the bank". After this, there is no need for folk to make further collections. The material can be reproduced and distributed.
Benefits to the "little guy" would be immense. After all, these are OUR plants, and we should have every right to protect them as out conscience dictates. The fact remains that these populations simply can't take the impact of repeated collections. We can't all of us go out with this idea, and try to form our own "NAtional Collection". This is what is going on now. People WANT to steward these plants, and it is right and proper that they do.
We need to UNITE, and work with each other to do this work. Ego and profit motivation needs be set aside for the greater good. One for all, and all for One. The days when one could feel good about being the guy with the biggest collection should end, and this as soon as possible. If the plants are to survive, they must do so through the mechanisms of love and sharing.
I suggest as well, that when we talk about making a field collection, taking plants from their habitats, that this is an issue of personal LIBERTY, and as such, we also need a CONSTITUTION which will apply, without exclusivity, to ALL.
Nor is this "Ntional Collection" limited to only the U.S. We have the tools now in place to launch a concerted world wide effort on behalf of these plants we all love so dearly. These plants do not belong to the U.S. They belong to the world. Let there be no exclusivity: when it comes to the love of these plants, we are all a NATION.
We have now come to the plants darkest hour. We need a luminary to come forth, a leader. What is Don Schnell doing these days? He could be the George Washington of such a work, lend prestige to such a UNION. I can think of many other NAMES who's support could make such a work possible: folk that have been growing (and loving) these plants for all their long lives. The Great Wise Ones - and you know who you are! Let them sign the CONSTITUTION. I am only one small voice, and although I try to make a difference, I am not eternal. Nor is Don Schnell. We need to inspire another generation to take up this cause, but first WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING to inspire them, instead of crying into our pitcher plants, and flopping out hands about uselessly in the air!
The ICPS has been drifting in this direction as well as evidenced by their distribution program of several rare Sarracenia species last year. We have the resources of international forums, and CP Societies all easily reachable by internet communication. The tools are present. The need is evident. The skills are in place. We are UNITED in our common love for these species.
All that lacks is the spark.
SO, all you Sarracenia Growers with the BIG LISTS of meticulously recoreded and maintained collection data, THIS is what you have been saving that data for! Here is a purpose and a vindication for that rare plant you dug up that time....remember? You said it was to "preserve it". Now I am asking that you back that up with action. Are you willing to send a division to a central place where decicated growers will increase it a hundred times over, and will actively seek placement for it in world collections?
You scientific professionals out there, that have been studying population dynamics, genetic studies, physiology, statistics: you know where our TREASURE lies. Are you willing to collect some of this material, and "put it in the bank", just for once, or will you wait with heavy sighs as you feel the rumble of the dozers? They will come you know, and then for what purpose will your research be for once their subject is extinct?
You growers out there, yearning for these plants: are you willing to study and learn to grow these plants and become a Steward for your children's children? For this is for you: one out of many. Will you say "thank you" by taking up the work?
From what I have seen, I believe you certainly will. Although others have begun this WORK, it will be the little guy that will make all the DIFFERENCE.
You Nursery Growers, commercial dealers, and plant-sale-fund-raiser folk: will you too come aboard, and will you surrender your part of the TREASURE even if it cuts your own profit margins, in the name of the love you bear for these plants? You can hold back the rare plants for supply/demand profiteering, but only consider that right now, while you are still in your skin, you can make a difference in how far these plants are spread. There would be no competition in your lifetime by surrendering your rarest plant....it will take generations of work before there will be enough plants circulating to do that. Once you are Gone, that rare plant may be forgotten and lost. Will you continue to share as you have so often in the past?
I hope you will. All of you. Because I believe in the center of me, that this is the only real chance to conserve what millions of years of Cosmic Artwork has produced: a miracle of unsurpassed beauty and awe.
Please: All in favor say "AYE"
Give me your thought's. Help me make this Forum into the tool it can be. Let this be our Convention Hall, where we draft a "CP CONSTITUTION". Lets define the right's of the PEOPLE, and provide for our posterity by UNITING and forming a WORLD NATIONAL COLLECTION while we still have opportunity to still act, before the curtain falls on our individual (and aging) selves, or on the plants we all love.
Maybe we can't hold back the habitat attrition, but this much at least is possible, and this too is Conservation. Let's make the plants darkest hour into our finest hour!
My thanks to Bugweed who inspired this concept, and to the many others I have spoken with that share it.
Finch
Whats it to ya?
Theres a lot of caring people out there, unshure on what to do. They see a situation thats getting worse and worse, and thinking theres nothing they can do to stop it. Or of they do something, they feel its not enough.
The problem is, these things arer’nt cute like birds or cuddly like otters.
Lets admit, some of these things kill their prey in pretty gruesome ways!
But other people would also care if they knew what was happening!! You should tell them what the problem is!
Others don’t want to join because they think theres nothing that can stop it, no victories for the plants or animals!
There ARE, they just are not heard!
We shouldn’t just tell people what is going WRONG, but also what’s been done RIGHT and take hope and strength from that!
I have done reserch about carnivorus plants, and found out that some rare nepenthes in cultivation may be all of one gender in cultivation due to tissue culture! And if the other gender disappears from the wild, its tecnacly extinct!
But don’t just tell people that they should despair, many species have been brought back from the brink! But no one today should let those species get to the brink in the first place!
so i say "AYE"
The problem is, these things arer’nt cute like birds or cuddly like otters.
Lets admit, some of these things kill their prey in pretty gruesome ways!
But other people would also care if they knew what was happening!! You should tell them what the problem is!
Others don’t want to join because they think theres nothing that can stop it, no victories for the plants or animals!
There ARE, they just are not heard!
We shouldn’t just tell people what is going WRONG, but also what’s been done RIGHT and take hope and strength from that!
I have done reserch about carnivorus plants, and found out that some rare nepenthes in cultivation may be all of one gender in cultivation due to tissue culture! And if the other gender disappears from the wild, its tecnacly extinct!
But don’t just tell people that they should despair, many species have been brought back from the brink! But no one today should let those species get to the brink in the first place!
so i say "AYE"
Finch
Whats it to ya?
EdaxFlamma
The Consuming Flame
Wow,
Very very nice...
I don't mean this in a rude way at all, but have the proceeds accomplished anything yet or is it still in the "collection" phase? I think some of the people on the forum (especially the new ones like myself) are unaware of all the details of the NASC what it's doing how it's helping etc. An education in this would be wonderful and maybe spur new ideas to help the cause!
-J.P.
Very very nice...
I don't mean this in a rude way at all, but have the proceeds accomplished anything yet or is it still in the "collection" phase? I think some of the people on the forum (especially the new ones like myself) are unaware of all the details of the NASC what it's doing how it's helping etc. An education in this would be wonderful and maybe spur new ideas to help the cause!
-J.P.
Finch
Whats it to ya?
pedersonplants
The Obsessive Gardener
People that care about Sarracenia should consider joining the NASC for their fantastically low fee of $10 per year. No fancy publications for your membership fee -- just the good feeling that you are contributing to an organization dedicated to preserving pitcher plants (Sarracenia) in the wild where they belong.
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Hey Folks,
A nice read. Sorry I haven't been more active on this forum. Busy, busy, busy. The good news is that I'm working on a number of conservation initiatives related to CP. It's always something of a drag when some of these are set up specifically to abate poaching. I mean, what kind of conservation am I doing, when I'm using time just to offset the backwards steps that others are making?
However, all CPers can contribute to the battle. I don't mean by sending donations to the ICPS or TNC (which are both, of course, appreciated). I mean by working with local officials, paying with sweat-equity at volunteer projects, by turning NASC into a viable, vibrant conservation organization, etc etc.
Good luck! The work is hard, the karma is sweet.
Barry
A nice read. Sorry I haven't been more active on this forum. Busy, busy, busy. The good news is that I'm working on a number of conservation initiatives related to CP. It's always something of a drag when some of these are set up specifically to abate poaching. I mean, what kind of conservation am I doing, when I'm using time just to offset the backwards steps that others are making?
However, all CPers can contribute to the battle. I don't mean by sending donations to the ICPS or TNC (which are both, of course, appreciated). I mean by working with local officials, paying with sweat-equity at volunteer projects, by turning NASC into a viable, vibrant conservation organization, etc etc.
Good luck! The work is hard, the karma is sweet.
Barry
