I would think...
t is better to have tried and failed...than to have never tried at all.
I would think...
t is better to have tried and failed...than to have never tried at all.
"Fox terriers are born with about four times as much original sin in them as other dogs." - Jerome K. Jerome
Good to see so many people wanting to support this scheme. Just a few things whats going on here:
The National collection scheme is run by an official governing body www.nccpg.com for all genera of cultivated plants. This is a UK based operation and it would be great if something similar happens in the USA. To qualify, one must have 75% of the RHS plants finder list (link on the above mnentioned site). What is important to the conservation is having genetic variation (6 or more individuals from a site is desirable). The bulk of the wild stock here was from Alan Hindle who brought in a lot of rare Sarracenias in the 1980s/90s and basically had plants derived from divisions from that stock. The only snag there is those were selected plants and not neccessarilly the 'average' plant from that area, Thats why some seed collection (sparingly!) is important as that has enough variability to cover must of the gene pools.
Every individual different clone gets a unique code with if available other peoples' code numbers as a cross reference. Obviously cultivars are listed and checked to see if they are genuine if the plant was.
There are now 650 different individuals here which is still being added too. All participants must have a 'master list' to refer to and make a similar cross referencing. But with someone on the scale like Phil Sheridan or ABG would ultimately lead to 1,000s of codes.. one must be practical about it..
I would be happy to discuss this further..
NCCPG National collection holder of Sarracenia
First off, thanks for the input so far, there have been some great posts and ideas.
What we need now is SUPPORT. Regardless of your thoughts on how this should proceed, or the process, this is a just and noble cause. It is the RIGHT thing to do. We need people to step up and volunteer your time.
There is a great evil happening as we speak.
These plants are disapearing around us, and once that happens, they are gone forever. That is, unless WE as a community come together and ACT. None of us can do it alone.
The only thing necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing (Winston Churchill)
If I can do anything, let me know. Like many others, I am lacking in the financial and time departments, but if any of my collection could go to such a cause as this, I would be glad!!! It sounds like location data is a necessity for this?
I'm in, I have a few common sars to donate. I can donate some moola as well. I'll help in any way I can, as small as it may be...
Most excellent! I am willing to do anything that needs to be done.
I am just like a Super Hero, but without the power or motivation.................and the funky suit.
I've been skimming, therefore I might repeat a problem which has already been discussed.
From the looks of it...you guys are going to select a few "prototype" plants(enough to maintain diversity if possible) and tag them with a code, put some plants at the bank, and set them free.
Problem is, humans are humans, and we make errors(I've got enough on my part:: ). Who knows, maybe someone who is keeping some S. leucs sends in some "seed". In reality, the other parent(perhaps by accident, a bumblebee etc.) was actually his S. x Judith Hindle plant that was sitting a couple yards away with his other hybrids which he started with and loved. Perhaps we won't notice the difference, we'll count it as a variation. Its plenty possible considering the slight differences you guys look for in "mystery sars" in the Id forum. It will eventually trickle back to the "bank". A more likely thing is if someone is maintaining several S. flava locations codes sprouts seeds, and some seedlings labels get mixed, or maybe one seed ends up in the wrong pot, or in a pot of sundews and he must ID which code it should be labeled as.
Also a question. do Sars of the same(or different) species from different codes ever exchange genetic information with eachother?
Sounds like a good plan, and if enough dedicated people are available, you guys could make a strong impact.
D. muscipula & D. muscipula 'Red Dragon'(barely)
S. purpurea and Drosera filiformis filiformis/ intermedia seeds waiting to sprout.
Thanks to the latest enlistee's for standing up and being counted. *You will be called!
I am happy to report I have a dedicated Secretary, Jason Wills who is also acting as my "reality tester" and official Devil's Advocate.
A good point Jason has made is that this needs to be kept as simple as possible, and I want to reassure anyone bewildered by the apparent complexities of this that this will indeed be our thrust.
Current committees are needed to allow selective concentration on areas of import.
Mike, thanks much for the information. *Please continue to advise as you will, and if you can work on the who's who list we will be indebted to you. *Anyone else with contact information regarding this list, please send the address information to our Secretary who will maintain the file until we need the information. *This list is very important.
Aides are currently working on compiling a list of Sarracenia Growers in the US.
We have a cover letter almost drafted now soliciting general recruits, and will begin drafting a good letter to bring in interest from commercial growers who may be able to assist us.
It has been suggested that we start a treasury and appoint a pro tem treasurer against the time when we will begin to require postage and expenses relative to contacting potential assistance. *I hesitate in this, since I feel this should come from nomination and election, but I do see the sense in getting this going as early as possible, so i welcome your discussion on this topic.
Once we have good contact information and a show of willing hands from growers, we can begin to compile a list of potential plant material which may currently be held by various growers. *Whether or not such material is acceptable will be open to review, but for now, if you have material that you feel qualifies in your own personal collections, please begin listing such. *By necessity, only material with collection data should be considered and included in your list. *Please send your lists to our Secretary for filing and eventual review.
Jason's email addy is:
My personal thanks go out all of you for your work, and especially to Jason who I think does not realize what he is in for, but by all accounts seems very capable of doing what is needed.
We have some very good and focused members who are digging right in.
Please continue to solicit new members to come and be counted. *Hopefully over the weekend we will have a poll up to determine what type of support individuals are willing to offer.
I will continue to call on you all with specific requests, and it remains imortant that you either act, or inform me of your inability to act so that I can deal with this. *There is no way I can be aware of all your schedules and consider them. *I will continue to act from the perspective that you will perform the duties as assigned.
Please limit your outside personal correspondance to other agencies, and submit any letter drafts to Quality Control, headed up by Plant-a-kiss for proofing as to consistency before sending them. *We need to provide a unified front.
See you tomorrow, I have been at this now for over 8 hrs and am pretty spent. *Progress is being made though, and this has me optimistic.
"Grow More, Share More"
Late breaking news:
We have some good involvement and support now with ICPS President, Carl Mazur who will be drafting a proposal for the ICPS and also working on placement for the proposed collection.
I can breathe a small sigh of relief now, this is what I have been hoping for.
"Grow More, Share More"
This emil was sent to my by ICPS President, Carl Mazur:
I took a quick look at the forum, and I'm afraid of what I'm seeing here.
There is a lot of unfocussed energy, and a lack of vision! As I've mentioned to you before, there is a right way and a wrong way to do this. What I'm seeing is a wrong way happening. I spent many hours talking to
Barry about this idea, and I'd ask that people don't bother him with this.
If you guys want this to be a bonefied, recognized, endorsed and legitmate NSC, then you can't go about it this way.
I realize I've not been working feverishly on getting a proposal
together, but It is important that certain steps are followed in a certain order!!!! In order for this have even a chance of getting endorsed as a legimitate undertaking, it has to start with the ICPS. I would have to be the person
to communicate with the board. Assuming the ICPS endorses it, upholding all legalities that are intertwined into such a thing, then it can move forward.
Without the endorsement of the ICPS, I believe that this cannot move forward as a "recognized" national collection by botanical gardens etc. Especially if distrubition of the plant material is involved. Without all this, it will just be a large list of plants that a bunch of CP enthusiasts are growing in their yards! Hardly the status this deserves.
The other thing, is that I think we all see things from a different perspective here. What is the vision of a National Collection. That is what has to be agreed on and persued. In my lengthly conversations with Barry, taking the point of conserving genepools from rare populations is not
the approach to take. This will make no sense. Basically, you would just have to put a rope around the South East and say this is our national collection. Keeping representative plants from each possible populations make no sense, unless they are appendix 1 plants, or extrememly rare populations, like the GA leuco population or the GA purpurea venosa or
montane populations, but having a flava from every possible ditch, roadside, savannah, make no sense. This is not a conserve the genepool, its conserve the heritage.
Here's how I see it, and how Barry sees it. If this doesn't sound like what y'all want to happen, then you will have to organize this on your own. My understanding of what y'all are invisioning is bascially represntation of every possible population of sarracenia in existance put into someones
backyard. Here's how I see it.
The Southeast is home Sarracenia, and as such, representatives of sarracenias should be conserved as part of the Natual Heritage of the USA. Firstly, all the rare plants should be included, jonesii, alabamensis and oreophila from all sites (sites to be coded, like the codes used by the ICPS
in the alabamensis project) From there, representatives from rare populations should be included, montane purps from GA, NC, flavas from VA, leuco from GA, purpurea venosa from GA etc. This plant are worth depositing just because these particular populations are rare for the state. Then
representative plants from each state should then be deposited, all NC species, all SC species, all GA species etc. From there we should have recognized taxonomic forms and varities and ssp of the species from each state. Next representatives of natually occuring hybrids from each
state. Then we should include interesting color forms, mutations, unique color forms (yellow flowered mutations, antho free forms etc). The fact that a particular plant came from a site 3.2 miles s of RT20 on SR65 in libery co.
FL is NOT important! the fact that another slightly different looking one came from 3.5 miles S or RT on SR65 is NOT imporant! The fact that an anthocyanin free form of S. rosea came from liberty Co. in FL is just fine!
This collection needs to be a collection that represents the diversity of Sarracenia throughout its range and historic range if plant material is avaible, not a snapshot of every possible population is exhistance! If this is what is visioned then its clear, that all the plant material we would need is in personal collections of many growers right now. There is NO NEED
to go out and dig plants, or collect seeds. I'm not saying that if something completely new is found its not worth collecting it (like the albino alata my wife and I found in 2001), but rather, I'm confident that between all our collections, we could have represtation of pretty much
all the sarracenia species, spp, vars, f, and mutations that exist! I consider that my personal collection alone pretty much represents most of what's out there, minus site specific apprendix 1 stuff, but all the material we need
is already in cultivation!!!!! You will never get support for any
from the ICPS, or any organization that says, "in order to have a national collection we need to go out collect a bunch of plants/seeds or every population of pitcher plants in exhistance to deposit there" IT WILL NEVER FLY!
Please think long and hard of the vision above, Barry and I have spent many hours discussing how to make such a project fly, in the scenario I presented above, its likely possible to get the support of not only the ICPS but
possible the support of Natural Hertitage programs in various states as well as possible USFW and TNC. Assuming there is support from many of the leaders, I'm sure places like the ABG, national botanical gardens in DC and other Botanical gardens in North America to by in.
There is my 2 cents. If this is the route you want to persue, one of you please email me back and let me know. If that is case, you need to put the ropes on that discussion on the forum, and let me take charge and get it moving (I have been slow, I realize that)! I need to create a very logical proposal to present to the ICPS and other organizations. This proposal
needs to establish a REAL need to establish such a collection and specifically outline all the logistics of how it will start, what will be included, how it will be maintained, by who and where. It will have to be a very well thought out and well prepared document. Assuming I can rally support, I will then come back to you all to start discussing logistics and
soliciting volunteers to aid in the establishment of the collection. If this is not the picture y'all see, then please accept my resignation from this project. What I think you see as vision is not going to fly other than in the backyards of a bunch of growers, (at least in my opinion). I don't think it will be credible unless its supported by a bonefied organization.
I have replied to Carl that I am willing (gladly) to step out of this if he is willing to assume this pro tem presidency. Carl has made some very good points, and I agree with most of them. Although I feel he has jumped to conclusions in some regards, I feel this is his vision and hope that all will work to support it
We have broached the concept in Forum, and stand ready to assist. This is enough for me for now. IF the ICPS officers truely wish to organize and direct our consitiuancy, let them come forward and take the gavel and proceed.
Brooks and Steve: this is the best I can do for you at present. I see no sense in organizing in a way that is antiproductive to the percieved goals of those who have a clearer focus regarding means and ends. I would ask that members here stand down, but be ready to assist where and when needed on request from Bugweed, Books, or Carl if he will be so kind as to join this Forum and provide such direction.
"Grow More, Share More"