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U.S. National Sarracenia Collection

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  • #61
More nominations are certainly needed, and an election, before there is any position to accept, but thanks Paul for your support and belief!

I would also like to call attention to my Secretary Jason Wills comments in defense of the ICPS and the scientific concerns.  These are to the point, and
present the problem of "scientific integrity" in a very good light.

I am an ICPS member and am proud to be one.  I have always supported the ICPS, and I continue to support them.  I stand ready to assist them should they embrace ICPS President Mazur's proposal in any way possible.

The ICPS is the best tool for interfacing with the scientific community, but the ICPS is also not the only CP concern, and not the only CP Society.  Although I feel all should offer the ICPS the deference they deserve, at the same time I have some criticism of some aspects regarding the ICPS image and presentation.  Other members have similar criticism, and although they are not subscribed ICPS members, they surely are members of a more inclusive CP society and they deserve to have a voice as well.  It does not begin and end with the ICPS, despite the thrust of the ICPS to make it so.  It begins with the individual.  If the individual does not have voice or consideration in the governing process of his society, then such a society cannot serve its members other than in a peripheral fashion, and it's leaders will be out of touch with the will of its membership.  I believe in time, support for such a Society will be withdrawn, and it will fail.  Without a Floor to open discussion on, the ICPS officers have no way of assessing the will of it's membership.

I really liked the ICPS in the days when Don Schnell was President.  It was more laid back.  There was less concern with the "Quality" of its membership, and more concern with its members.  People were willing to write articles for the CPN, offer opinions and speculations, and interact in a SOCIAL manner.  It was a lot like TF, before "Quality" became the dominating thrust, discouraging any but the most elite members from presenting material for publication or discussion on it's listserve.

The dictates of it's Administration now have it bogged down in red tape, schedules, review .  Concern with "Image" has certainly been effective.  The Society has quite a different image from the days when back yard pitcher plant farmers and Presidents alike got their hands dirty together and shared in the work and pleasure together.  I have reread the early CPN's, and find the early publications has an atmosphere very similar to the feeling we have here at TF, complete with speculations, inaccuracies and member contributions. It was a growing thing then, filled with productive enthusiasm .

In the same way the CP Listserve has become a useless discussion tool dominated by the voicerferous few who discourage any non-elite posters, the CPN has drifted towards becoming a scientific journal, rather than a society journal.

The technology is present for the ICPS officers to have closer contact with its membership.  At present such communication between the ICPS officers and its membership is via personal email.  The problems arise when society members are directed, as Mr. Mazur, ICPS Pesident, has directed, that we all not "bother" Barry with our concerns, ideas and collective will.  He is a *busy* man involved with important matters of which we know nothing.  There is a "right" way to do things, and this will be decided by those who know better, and can really do something.

The ICPS, although putatively representative of CP society is responsible only to its subscribers.   My objection is that CP SOCIETY goes beyond the subscription list of the ICPS.

Who will serve this society of scientific wannabe's, dreamers, back yard growers with no credentials, ignorant newbies?  Who will stand up for Joe Wannaplant?

I have suggested many times to Barry, that a union between TF and the ICPS would be a good idea.  I believe it remains a good idea.  The ICPS needs to attend to the will of its membership, NOT its own perogatives and opinions of its board.  ICPS members are not all lettered scientists, not all good spellers, not all completely informed.

The ICPS needs a moderated forum where the needs of the many are allowed free discussion, and the CP Listserve has failed as a communication tool.  The ICPS has great potential to act, if it will, for its membership but it's leaders are out of touch with the desires of that same membership, and has no way to learn what these desires are.  They have painted themselves into a scientific corner and are constrained by their own self created image of what "Quality" implies.  

Well, you can't have your cake and eat it too.  In the end, an inclusive CP society will judge a work by the fruit it bears.  If the current administrative tenor continues, the ICPS will end up as a scientific Journal serving an elite scientific membership and the bulk of its members will seek a place where true social interaction is fostered, respected and protected.  I certainly will remain an ICPS member, but it will be for what the ICPS provides to me, not for what I can offer to it.  I am, after all, only Joe Needaplant and what do I know about anything?

I urge the ICPS to act on these considerations.  I will not mention them again (other than in MODERATED public debate), since it is not my intention to compete with, defame or demean the ICPS, but rather cooperate with them in areas where our mutual goals coincide.  I believe with the employment of real communication and feedback, we will find that there are many such goals.  In the end, we are all ONE SOCIETY, if we can but realize it!

Joe Wannaplant is just one little voice without prestige or special interest.  What is needed is for an election to demonstrate statistical backing to that small voice, and lend it strength, volume and respect amongst the councils of the Wise.  I have accepted the nomination, and now I ask that those who stand by me enter my campaign, and actively work toward my election.  Having the backing of  10 votes is good, but having the backing of 1000 is much better.  If you will work towards my election, I will do everything I can to work towards determining the will of the majority and towards the implementation of that will.

With your voice I can speak to the ICPS (and others) with some authority, but without it I am just another guy, and can be painted to be seen as such by clever rhetoric and propaganda.  As an elected official it will be harder to brush me off, and friends, I do not intend to be brushed off.  I am here to stay.  One thing I can promise: if you elect me, I will not lead you: you will lead me.  Please work on campaigning for me and be active in calling the membership to vote when the time comes.  



I am still calling for nominations.  I will not have it said I ran unopposed, or that I was a "shoe-in".  Nominations may be refused by the nominee's, but thay should be made!
 
  • #62
This posting should be filed squarely in the FWIW column (or wastebin, as the case may be).

I wholeheartedly support the idea of a U.S. Sarracenia National Collection. I've discussed the idea with Carl Mazur and I understand and respect many of the issues and concerns he raises.

I also (in the best tradition of fence sitting) understand the frustrations Tamlin and others have with the ICPS. I felt many of those frustrations myself when I was president of the society.

Somewhere between the potential risk of scientific elitism and the well-meaning chaos of amateur growers is the answer, I think (without pretending for a moment to claim to have it or offer it to anyone).

I have expressed a few of my concerns directly to Carl, who is a great guy and a good friend. I've seen in too many official and semi-officials collections the desire to contain rather than disseminate.

I am and will always be an enthusiastic amateur, and I desperately hope that there is room for the perspectives of those who are involved with CP as a vocation and an avocation, in any undertaking of this sort. I don't like the idea of a national collection being cloistered in a botanic garden where the only chance of distribution is the infrequent "fundraiser" of new introductions at $25 a piece, or worse, $100!

I like much more the opportunity for earnest and exacting amateurs to take part in this, or at a minimum -- a cost-based distribution program for rare plants (like the $7 S. rubra alabamensis distribution managed by the ICPS and UC Davis).

I have a large collection of Sarracenia, including some rare/unique plants. I am certainly interested in having as many people as possible be able to grow these -- to appease my own charitable sense, and (selfishly) as an insurance policy against loss of my own.

Thanks for letting me borrow a little of the bandwith on this important topic for my ramblings.
 
  • #63
Tamlin,

     Although almost uneccessary to post this, you have my vote.  Add me to the statistics you are speaking for.
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SF
 
  • #64
Thanks Snowy, but the vote is a bit of a way off. If you would help this incumbent, start talking with your friend, and get them to vote for me in the poll when the time comes.
 
  • #65
Jay,

In the waste bin?!!! Come on, you don't really mean that! Everything else in your post supports everything that the Sarracenia First National Democratic Collection wishes to produce, and agrees with it except for that comment!

But what you, or Brooks, or Bugweed, or Mr. Mazur need to realize is that personal and individual opinion, no matter how well intentioned, is not democratic. You can't simply brush off opinions not in conformity with personal agenda if you really wish to give birth to a National Collection.

Nor does there of necessity need be ONE such collection. My personal opinion is that there should not be.

The "Sarracenia Firster's" are willing to accomodate and help other interests and ventures I think, but are not willing to abandon their own venture, as has been demonstrated by the refusal of my request to "stand down". So, without apology, their concepts will be explored, and not abandoned in leiu of some real or imagined "better plan" - especially if they have not been informed as to its nature.

If you, or Mr. Mazur or any officers of the ICPS choose to pursue a National Collection, that is well and good by all of us I think. That this assembly wishes to proceed with their concept is also well and good, but we will proceed in a democratic and open manner via public forum and public consensus: not as a result of meetings by the few who feel they know best behind closed doors!

This option of discussion is available to the ICPS, officers and members, Mr. Mazur and *any* interested party. This is an open discussion. If it is felt that a bunch of raggle taggle growers have no business doing this work, that is likewise opinion only, and will not affect those who wish to unite and work to realize their goals in a DEMOCRATIC manner.

Those who wish to stand up and be counted, to offer their own voice to the voices raised here are welcome. But if they do not stand up and come forth, they will not be counted. Any action from my Presidency will be by majority decision, provided I am elected to the office.

Thank YOU for your input, which I value and regard in NO WAY as a waste of Disc Space. Matters like this are what public Forum should be about, and we are fortunate to have such a great potential tool at our service. Lets use it to make our visions both accessible and available for ALL to consider, discuss, and decide upon.

As a past President of the ICPS, you have the skills to preside over this assembly. Please consider seeking the office of President if you feel your skills can direct the course of this assembly in a democratic fashion. That such direction is needed is evident. Present a platform to this assembly based on your feelings and inclinations, and let the majority rule.

I have no personal opinion regarding this collection, apart from an insistance that it remain democratic, and will gladly serve any administration willing to address these issues based on majority rule.
 
  • #66
I agree, Jay. Your past skills may be needed for this. We are tired of not being heard, and ignored with flippant remarks just because one or two people don't agree with this idea. I think it is a matter of not wanting to lose "power". There is only one power, and last time I looked, He hadn't given it to any one man, or woman. The plants and their preservation is the only power I need. The ICPS dropped the ball a long time ago when they became exclusive to themselves, and shut the members out. If Mike King and his fellows can do this and keep it "right" and viable, then we should take that example of what growers can do, and do it. We can be taught to keep proper records, we are not idiots, and can be taught how to handle all the pollination, seed distribution, cultivating, Flowerhead bagging, all of it, and do it together so that we are all on the same page, everyone prepared to do there best. I still want all the comments you can give me.
 
  • #67
Jay,

In case I misunderstood your comment, my apology.  Some members have interpeted your "waste bin" comment as referring to Mr. Mazur's letter, not our proposal.

If you are willing to help Joe Wannaplant, I am your man.  I feel that the time for fence sitting is done.

I nominate jlechtm (Jay) for the office of President of The Sarracenia First National Democratic Collection.  Will you accept the nomination?
 
  • #68
So, Jay, I guess it’s not clear just which post you think should be in the wastebin. You also speak of your frustration with the way things are at present?  Your words seem very much in support of the way most people on this thread are leaning.  Perhaps you have some very good ideas you haven’t yet shared.  I, also, would very much like to hear what else you think of this topic & how these concerns might be answered.    
rock.gif

Oh, yeah & I would like to give credit to finch who first said, 'hey, where is everyone?'
 
  • #69
I didn't realize we were to nominate others as well.  May I nominate SarraceniaObsessed, otherwise known as Brooks as a good candidate for presidency?  I know he's a Sarr expert and believe he would be a good nominee.

SF
smile.gif
 
  • #70
The nomination of Brooks has been made. Please inform him of this, and ask for his public acceptance or refusal of the nomination.

The chair also waits for Jay's public acceptance or refusal.

Unless there is a motion to the contrary, this call for nominations will remain in effect for a week: longer if the assembly feels it is needed.


Are there any more nominations for the Office of President of the Sarracenia First National Democratic Collection?
 
  • #71
Brooks is at a Flower Show in South Georgia at present. I will try to forward the nomination to him. I think we have three excellent candidates so far.
 
  • #72
I think it was Groucho Marks who said that he wouldn't belong to any club that would have him as a member ....  
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First of all, for clarity's sake ... I only meant that my own comments may belong in the wastebin. I wasn't referring to anyone's feelings but my own.

I am well and truly on the fence. I recognize the value that ICPS sanction (if not participation) could bring to this endeavor. I also know that there are factions within the ICPS who believe that the average grower isn't worthy of much -- if any -- participation in the advancement of the knowledge of these plants. That faction has always frustrated me -- both within and without the ICPS. It is also true that the ICPS can be glacially slow, but not necessarily for the reason you assume. In my experience, it was slow (often paralyzed) because it, too, sought consensus, or at the very least, an active champion for a good idea. It was always much easier to say "I think we should do this" than to find the one who would actually do it.

So, while I appreciate the nod, I have to decline the nomination. In my experience, Tamlin has the passion, the exactitude and the critical people skills necessary to pull this off, if indeed there is any "off" to pull.

I am happy to help as I can. I am happy to contribute plants and growing space and attention to a national collection. I think it's a worthy goal.

And it's my own personal goal to have a collection that's accessible to hobbyists like myself, rather than held exclusively behind he gates of "official" repositories.
 
  • #74
After reading through the long pages of posts I would like to voice my opinion.

As a CP collector who likes to see plants in the wild and photograph and even take efforts at conservation.......

I am SICKENED by the way the ICPS is reacting to this. I am agreeing with the people that are all for conservation. What is wrong with people nowadays? It all seems to revolve around money and your political/social position. Why don't people want to act? Sure laws may be broken but why not ALERT and educate more people on these plants. We have a huge community in the US and the other parts of the world that protect these plants every day, but still they are disappearing due to lack of funding or just the greed of more of that green paper. I still love to walk into the local mountains and be privledged to see a stand of lady slipper orchids and a bog full of Sarracenia on a warm spring day with the breeze blowing all around. But those areas turn into parking lots, wastelands and concrete fields that eventually become of no use to us.

I am all for helping this project, and fueled by my might and pride I am all for saving our country's natural heritage without the "important" people or not!

Stand together and save biodiversity!
 
  • #75
NEp G,

So far, the ICPS hasn't reacted at all. Mr. Mazur has not broached the topic formally to them. The ICPS will likely not address this, other than in their time and their space.

This is not about the ICPS, and concept is not of necessity any concern of their's. The ICPS will act according to its own dictates in its own time and fashion. This assembly (if there is an assembly) will also address this issue should it not die a death of apathy here.

In either case, we will at least provide a good inventory for whatever purpose the assembly determines is appropriate, including backing any sanctioned ICPS plan, if that is the will of the assembly.
 
  • #76
I'm glad to see that the enthusiasm is back, along with the focus.
When the time comes, I'd like to comment about seed production and polination of flowers. I think that there are a few things that might be considered, while trying to "preserve" the genetics.
Back when the listserve was interesting, this very topic was discussed at length.
imduff
 
  • #77
Although this has become a discussion of candidates, politics, and organizational philosophy (a worthwhile airing of views), I wonder about dividing a national collection among individuals, especially those in environments very different from the plants' source.  This, by the way, is a question I've had about the ICPS' seedbank and S. alabamensis project.

I think CP enthusiasts can have good intentions, be motivated and meticulous, but a neighborhood kid might have fun swapping tags in the pots.  I have no doubt which of my plants are the ICPS S. alabamensis plants, but I don't have any S. rubras to confuse them with.  And I know which one is from ICPS Location #3 because it's the furry one (OK, pubescent).  So a label disaster isn't a concern for me.  But what if I had 20 different S. rubras?

Or an accidental pollination can happen.  If I had another S. rubra and it accidentally contributed pollen to an S. alabamensis I pollinated, how would anyone know?  I could take steps to prevent it, but accidents happen.  Especially if we're relying on amateurs like me.  Seed would go to the seedbank and I would say it is what I believed it to be.  No one growing the seed would have any reason to doubt it, at least not for a long time.  Maybe never.  At least if the accidental pollination was by one of my Leucophyllas, the problem could be noticed eventually.

The next issue is; what if I were growing a lot of ICPS Location #3 S. alabamensis plants here in CT and some don't survive the winter.  I have just passed part of the natural diversity of S. alabamensis through the filter of a CT winter.  Even if they all survive, some might have been injured or be slower to mature or produce less seed in the shorter growing season and cooler summer of CT.  The pubescent pitcher on my particular #3 plant might be a sensible thing in the Alabama sun, but it just further reduces the limited sun available here.  A non-pubescent #3 would probably be better adapted to CT.  Clearly, I'm selecting for a subpopulation of S. alabamensis adapted for life in a pot in CT.
 
  • #78
William, I understand completely and respect Carl with all respecs but I know we will get no backing from them. I'm not downing the ICPS but Iwant my kids to see wild Sarracenia.....as well as me myself! Are the big boys aware of this like D'amato, Dean Cook and of course PFT. My father has read through this and just can't belive that the states would allow this to happen and that none of the elder CP members whom have been in that for at least a decade don't have a real say in this.
 
  • #79
As a "newbie with no credentials"
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(lol, I'm glad to say that since it's a lot of fun getting just started with CPs, I can't wait for Spring....) I want to state my support for this National Sarracenia Collection. I am very excited about this and wish to help in any way I can.

It has become my dream to eventually see a North American Carnivorous Plant Garden of some sort. So people from all over can view a representation of the beautiful plants in this country. With the installment of the NSC (or whatever it will be called) this dream of mine (and maybe some of yours) looks brighter.
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Something needs to be done now to preserve our sarracenia so that future genreationscan visit a natural stand of pitcher plants (I still haven't been able to do that and it would be nice
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)
 
  • #80
Wrong Mijako 10, everyone of you has credentials, they're just new. Some are older, and some can hardly be read anymore, but whatever the case, you have a say, no matter what. Stick around and read on.
 
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