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Bought a new cichlid, red devil

I recently purchased a very agressive and mean Red Devil Cichlid fish. I put him in a 15 gallon plastic aqaurium box type thing. I dont care if he wont get very big in it, I dont want him to grow big, as he will only grow as big as his terrarium allows him from what I know about fish. Hes got a air filter thing, that blows bubbles into the water, the bottom is filled with multicolored smooth stones, hes got some fake plants and a coral reef den thing. Yesterday I fed him a small feeder fish that he swallowed whole. I need some tips on how to keep him! I dont know about all these PH level stuff, I dont think he needs it? I just need help! Please!
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Trapsrock @ June 08 2003,09<!--emo&
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)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I recently purchased a very agressive and mean Red Devil Cichlid fish. I put him in a 15 gallon plastic aqaurium box type thing. I dont care if he wont get very big in it, I dont want him to grow big, as he will only grow as big as his terrarium allows him from what I know about fish. Hes got a air filter thing, that blows bubbles into the water, the bottom is filled with multicolored smooth stones, hes got some fake plants and a coral reef den thing. Yesterday I fed him a small feeder fish that he swallowed whole. I need some tips on how to keep him! I dont know about all these PH level stuff, I dont think he needs it? I just need help! Please![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Don't mean to burst your bubble, but your not near ready for red devils. a 15 gallon tank is WAY too small, and it will outgrow it, the saying that they only grow as big as their tank is false, they'll just be stunted in growth. feeder fish are not good for food, feeder guppies are better. Yes he needs the ph to be level, it's one of the most important things. FYI, you cant just get a fish and put it in a tank! you should set up the tank first and get the biological bacteria going! the P.H. should be 6.0-7.5. try to get the ammonia levels as lowa s possible. And most of all, I would return that fish to the petstore, and get a bigger tank before getting a red devil. they're social fish from what I've heard, get 2 females and a male, and a 55 gallon fish tank.
IOW, research before you get a fish, or any living thing
NRN
-Spec
 
Hi Trapsrock,

Red Devils are pretty cool. Spec is right though, he or she will soon out grow that 15 gallon tank. Devils get to be a foot long. They are intensely territorial and highly aggressive. Sorry to say, Spec, but Devils are not very social. They will kill one another and even bonded pairs are touch and go. This is just a bad *** fish. I agree with Spec that guppies are better than goldfish or rosies for food. Earthworms are the best. Big insects are great -- crickets are good. Pellets are always good and have alot of the food stuff the fish need.
Spec is right, the tank needs to cycle. Was it already set up before you got the fish? Did it have fish in it for a while -- at least 6 weeks? If not, watch the ammonia and nitrite levels very closely and do at least a 50% water change once a week -- or more often if the chemistry gets bad or the water gets foggy. It can kill him or her.
I don't worry about pH for most fish -- unless you have East African cichlids and soft acid tap water. They will die in soft acid water. Most fish will adjust to most water within reason. A red devil can be happy in water from 6 to 8 pH and from soft to hard. If your water is reasonable don't worry about it. If he or she is happy now the water is ok pH and Hardness wise.
Oh, he or she likes alot of gravel to move around and a cave structure to live in. Devils dig pits.

So watch for ammonia and nitrite; keep him alone; think about alot more room; feed; change some water often and be careful he doesn't bite you
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Bobby
 
Ill give you the full run down, I filled it to about half with natural spring water, I filled the bottom with washed stones and plants with a den. He is in a 15 gallon, and I do know alot about him, and I consider that an insult spec, by saying FYI, you cant just get a fish and put it in a aquarium because I didint! That was extremely rude to say. Hes in a 15 gallon with a water filter thing, he has no water cleaner filter thing, and I talked to the pet guy for like a hour about cichlids when I bought him, there not social, they kill everything, I feed him fully gut loaded feeder fish, that have been eating highly nutrious exspensive food. Im trying to train him on flake food, but he wont eat it. I just need some tips, not a FYI, you need to research before hand...rude.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (biggun110 @ June 09 2003,01:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hi Trapsrock,

  Red Devils are pretty cool. Spec is right though, he or she will soon out grow that 15 gallon tank. Devils get to be a foot long. They are intensely territorial and highly aggressive. Sorry to say, Spec, but Devils are not very social. They will kill one another and even bonded pairs are touch and go. This is just a bad *** fish. I agree with Spec that guppies are better than goldfish or rosies for food. Earthworms are the best. Big insects are great -- crickets are good. Pellets are always good and have alot of the food stuff the fish need.
   Spec is right, the tank needs to cycle. Was it already set up before you got the fish? Did it have fish in it for a while -- at least 6 weeks? If not, watch the ammonia and nitrite levels very closely and do at least a 50% water change once a week -- or more often if the chemistry gets bad or the water gets foggy. It can kill him or her.
   I don't worry about pH for most fish -- unless you have East African cichlids and soft acid tap water. They will die in soft acid water. Most fish will adjust to most water within reason. A red devil can be happy in water from 6 to 8 pH and from soft to hard. If your water is reasonable don't worry about it. If he or she is happy now the water is ok pH and Hardness wise.
   Oh, he or she likes alot of gravel to move around and a cave structure to live in. Devils dig pits.

   So watch for ammonia and nitrite; keep him alone; think about alot more room; feed; change some water often and be careful he doesn't bite you  
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Bobby[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
They're not social? really? I'll have to remember that.
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Trapsrock, I didn't think you would take FYI insulting. I meant something more along the lines of, "IMHO"
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Biggun, you really otta be a moderator in the fish forums! You know everything about them, and BTW I bought my pacus some green grapes! Let's see if they take it.
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-Spec
 
FYi is not rude to say , its just what people say to get other peoples attention . anyways try these 2 website , www.predatoryfish.net which is a forum like this and www.kingsoftheaquarium.com which will tell you baout red evils . " I dont care if he wont get very big in it, I dont want him to grow big, as he will only grow as big as his terrarium allows him from what I know about fish. " , now thats cruel , he will grow very big and soon your gonna have to get him a really big tank . i grow arowanas and soon i'll need a 300 gallon tank for this lil guy . try to convert him to carnivorous flake food , r=feeder are not really good for them .
 
Trapsrock,

Spec was not being rude, I think you just took it that way because he doesn't like the fact you are knowingly keeping a fish in a tank that will stunt it.

You are misinformed if you think that is humane, the stunting of a fish causes abnormal growth in some organs, and causes them to litterally, become internally deformed. Not only that, imagine if you had to live out your entire life in a 10 by 10 room? That is more room for you than your giving this fish.

Also, and I am not putting words in anyones mouth here, but perhaps Spec felt he needed to educate you because you use terms like 'water filter thing' and not what your actually using, useful info would be, 'I am using an emperor 400 power filter'. by calling neccessary and important parts of your setup 'things' you make us think you don't know what your talking about, thus, the people here who want to help think they need to give you more extensive knowledge than your asking for. Remeber, all we know about you is what you write.

That being said, it sounds like you know about your fish, and your started in the right direction. (Except for the tank size, which needs to be upgraded as the fish grows, if he's small, then 15 is fine for now, but you will need to grow with him, or trade him when he gets to big.)

Ok... weaning him off live food.

I know it sounds cruel, but a little starvation can go a long way. obviously don't take it to far, but you gotta be stronger than him.
 
Ok, im on the right track now, hes out of the nasty crud I had him in, I went out today and bought a all in one 50 dollar set up thing. Its a 10 gallon aquarium with a water filter and air filter built into one, the bottom is filled with rocks, and he has some greenery. The lid came with HOT HOT HOT lights, which he is tropical so I think he enjoys it. The water is very clean, and tiny bubbles are everywhere. In his old plastic box thing, he wasnt swimming, he was dieing, he was basically intoxicating himself. The PH levels of the water are around 6.0-7.0 as the aquarium came with a ph tester. I fed him anther feeder and he swallowed it whole. Im trying to train him on flakes, but he kept spitting them out. Dont go all huffy thinking 10 gallons is really tiny, but I took some sloppy measurements and heres what they came out to be:
The Red Devil is around 2 inches from bottom to dorsal fins when there down.
Hes around 5 inches long.
Hes less than an inch thick.

I told the aqaurium person this, and he immediatly pointed to a 10 gallon kit, that had everything included for 50 dollars. He told me to grab some new greens because the old stuff could be contaiminated, and 3 bags of multi colored stones. The man also told me that once he is about half the 10 gallon long, that I must upgrade to a 20-30 gallon immediatly or he could die from stress. He picked out a select-a-meal thing, tropical fish flakes, it has Breakfast, Lunch, and dinner built in with a treat built in to, it swivles around. There little pellets. He looks so much happier, before he was staying in a corner and not moving, now hes swimming everywhere.
 
Hi Trapsrock,

Ok, things sound good -- for now. The tank is still going to "cycle". What that means, basically, is the fishie is going to do numbers 1 and 2 and you are going to overfeed a bit and waste in the form of ammonia is going to be relaesed into the water. The tank's ecology is going to start growing bacteria to process the ammonia but that takes about 4 to 6 weeks to happen in a new tank -- so that the ammonia is processed instantly as it appears and the water stays perfect -- so, for the next 4-6 weeks you need to feed the guy lightly once a day and change 50-80% of the water every week -- OR -- more often if the ammonia and nitrite go up or the water looks the least bit cloudy. The water changes and light feeding will keep the ammonia in check those first 4 weeks and allow the fish to make it through the cycle process alive. Needless to say, when you change water you must de-chlorinate the replacement water and allow it to pour into a bucket so that it pulls oxygen into itself before you pour it into the tank. Water right out of the faucet or hose that is allowed to fill a container without breaking the surface (hose under the water's surface) has no dissolved oxygen in it and the fish cannot breathe then. This is very important to remember when changing water -- especially big water changes.
The bubbles on the glass should pass as they are not great for the fish's gills. They can irritate the gills.
Devil's are not big on flakes and flakes will create alot of missed food in the tank which decayed makes more ammonia. Try small pellet food -- Hikari is a great brand. Get pellets that are the small size so they are easy to swallow. Earthworms and bugs are good foods. Pieces of raw chicken liver and beef heart are good, or small popcorn shrimp -- but wait until the tank is cycled for the last 3. Frozen bloodworms are a good choice.
Your keys right now will be water changes, watching the ammonia and nitrite levels and light feedings of good food.
Is the light incandescent or flourescent? It sounds incandescent if it is hot. The problem with those is they raise the temperature of the water when on and let it fall when off. If the tank has a heater see what the highest temperature is when the lights are on and if it is not above 84F set the heater to keep it there 24/7. 78 or 80F would be better. Devils are forgiving about temperature within reason.
If the fish ever acts lazy and sick -- change water!
Good luck.

Bobby
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  • #10
I understood half that. Could you Rephrase? It takes 6 weeks for the water to clot? Or what? I couldnt understand most of that.
 
  • #11
Hi Trapsrock,

Ok, let me see. Fish put out waste -- liquid and solid. Food goes uneaten and decays and creates more solid waste. What does a tank do with this? It has a filtering system. The filter system works on 3 levels:

Mechanical -- the filter pad (many types) picks up solid waste
Chemical -- the charcoal (carbon) takes out smells, elements and color in the water
Biological -- good bacteria that grow in the filter and on surfaces in the tank itself that break down (eat) the waste (ammonia and nitrite).

When you buy a filter, it may work by doing one, two or all three of these levels of filtration. An outside power filter is often just chemical and mechanical but the Emperor 400 RamPuppy mentioned does all 3 kinds of filtration. An undergravel filter is just a biological filter. The biological aspect of filtering water is the most important part because frequent partial water changes can do what mechanical and chemical filration do but only biological filtration can do its job. It's the biological filtering that keeps the tank healthy and the fish free from swimming in their own pee and dooky. From what you wrote, I am not sure if you have a good biological filter or not.
So, you set up a new tank. Biologically it is pretty much sterile. You add fish and feed. Waste starts collecting in the water. The good bacteria then start to grow as they have food to eat now (ammonia -- fish pee and dooky). The bacteria explode in numbers and overgrow and produce their waste which is ammonia turned into nitrite. The nitrite waste of the bacteria is almost as deadly to the fish as their own waste (ammonia -- pee and dooky). For about 4-6 weeks, the waste and bacteria are trying to get into balance so there is just enough bacteria to eat all the waste as soon as it forms in the water. Until that balance is reached you will get spikes of ammonia and nitrite in the water and these can kill a fish. The tank has to do this to become a healthy life supporting system but it is rough on the fish. The main things to do are to change part (50%)of the water at least once a week the first 6 weeks -- or change more often if the water gets cloudy; don't add more fish until the balance (cycle) is reached and feed lightly and make sure all the food is eaten.
Your local fish store will test your water for ammonia and nitrite over these 6 weeks or you can buy the kits and do it yourself.
I hope this is clearer. It boils down to feed lightly, change water and keep a close eye on the tank the first 6 weeks so you see a problem forming before it goes too far.

Bobby
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  • #12
Traps, here is a quick and dirty link I dug up..

http://www.algone.com/cycle.htm

that has a diagram of the nitrogen cycle in a fish tank, which is basically what we are talking about here.

I would like to reccomend that you purchase a product like CYCLE, or another beneficial bacteria product, just go ask your pet store guy for one, and he'll gladly sell it to you. what your doing is buying a culture of good bacteria that will speed up the cycling process in your tank, they will colonize on every surface or rocks, plants, the tank walls, in the weave of your filters, on the silicone, EVERYWHERE (this eventually happens in every tank, your just helping speed along the process.)

I think this is great stuff, and it will probably keep your fish from going through unessecary stress. (but you still need to do everything biggun said&#33
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here is another great article on NEW TANK SYNDROME.

http://www.bestfish.com/breakin.html

remember, were not 'getting huffy' we are trying to mentor you in a new hobby and help you learn so your successful. We want you to have fun and enjoy this, and all to often newcomers to the aquarium hobby fail because they are not armed with the right information.

10 gallon is fine for now, and as said, as the fish grows, so does his home, just like a family.

Also, you will want to get him on the pellet food as soon as possible, one reason many people fail with the predators is the live prey the feed, feeders are usually stocked heavily and disease can be a problem, if your devil eats something he can't handle, he'll get sick to.

One way to train him off live and on to frozen is to make a feeding stick, find a tube that is clear and attatch a paper clip to it, silicone works best. You use the paper clip to hold a dead fish, or a piece of chicken, or something else he might find tasty, and you wiggle it around, get him to strike it. It should be loosely attatched so he can pull it off and swallow it. over time, you move it less and less, and then start throwing the food in without the stick, or try waving pellets on the stick eventually, the idea is to introduce a common demoniator, the stick, into the feeding process, so he associates the stick with food, not the food.. I know it's weird, and maybe a little hard to understand, but it works on a number of species, I don't know if it will work on a red devil, I am betting his appetite and attitude will let you brake him of the live food habbit strictly by starving him.
 
  • #13
Thanks for all your help guys, I went to predatoryfish.com and all they did was chew my head off, they really bugged me, the people buy one fish and act like there fish doctors and rule the world, I appreciate you guys being nice about all this. Im sorry I said the FYI thing was rude, because now when I compare him to what I had him in, and what hes in now, it seems like a joke. I bought a new under-gravel filter for him, so his tank will be even more clean, the filter hes got can only clean the water and syphon the little bits and pieces, I noticed that when he...well...whatever ill just say pooped, it kind of just sank to the bottom and sat there, the filter isnt strong enough to do that, so I got a under-gravel, which will suck up his sinking...waste. His aqaurium is sparkly clean, and every two weeks I will change about 20% of his water, I got him trained on Tetra Tropical fish flakes Select-a-meal. He has a variety of 4 different foods, brekafast, lunch, dinner, and treat so he wont get bored, and I bought some dired blood-worms. Those weird cichlid staple stuff from Hikari was like 12.99! Right now his diet is the occasional guppy, and 3 light feedings, breakfast, lunch dinner. Ill report tommorow, bye.
 
  • #14
Just remembered something, you can get tetra natures delica, it's expensive, but cichlids love them!
 
  • #15
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Spectabilis73 @ June 11 2003,8:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just remembered something, you can get tetra natures delica, it's expensive, but cichlids love them![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Exspensive, is the key word, thats the reason why I didnt buy the hikari stuff, but hes doing fine now, and im looking into investing my money into a 30 gallon also.
 
  • #16
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Trapsrock @ June 11 2003,06:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I bought a new under-gravel filter for him, so his tank will be even more clean, the filter hes got can only clean the water and syphon the little bits and pieces, I noticed that when he...well...whatever ill just say pooped, it kind of just sank to the bottom and sat there, the filter isnt strong enough to do that, so I got a under-gravel, which will suck up his sinking...waste. His aqaurium is sparkly clean, and every two weeks I will change about 20% of his water, I got him trained on Tetra Tropical fish flakes Select-a-meal. He has a variety of 4 different foods, brekafast, lunch, dinner, and treat so he wont get bored, and I bought some dired blood-worms. Those weird cichlid staple stuff from Hikari was like 12.99! Right now his diet is the occasional guppy, and 3 light feedings, breakfast, lunch dinner. Ill report tommorow, bye.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Hi Trapsrock,

Cichlid keepers are a nutty bunch. Try not to let them make you feel badly. They talk more than they listen.
The Undergravel Filter was a great choice. They work well. I hope you have a small grade gravel and not a large size as the UGF will work better with the small gravel. Now the UGF will pull the solid waste down into the gravel and break it down -- to a point. UGFs work by drawing highly oxygenated water down through the gravel and then back up the lift tubes where the bubbles are bubbling. The water flowing all through the gravel allows the entire gravel bed to become rich in good bacteria which makes for rapid processing of the waste and alot of waste at that. It will still take the tank 4-6 weeks to cycle with the UGF but when it finishes you will have a good bacteria bed in the gravel. When you do water changes be sure to vacuum clean the gravel so you suck all the dirt that gets stored in the gravel by the UGF out of the tank. If you leave it in the gravel it will build up, turn the water yellow and lower your pH too much. Cleaning the gravel by vacuuming is as important as partial water changes. I hope that is clear
tounge.gif
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I'd try to change at least 20% of the water once a week the first 6 weeks. It will help keep things in check during the cycling.
The flakes are fine and the variety is good. Small bags of Hikari -- 2 oz size -- Cichlid pellets should cost $3-$5 a bag. Pellets of some type are better as they create less uneaten food -- flake particles fall off when the flake is eaten and some even get blown out the fish's gills. Soon it will cost more in flakes as it takes more flakes to fill the Devil up. Pellets are denser as a food and it takes fewer to fill up the fish. There is a pellet called Shrimp Pellets that is a good food and pretty cheap but if you over feed it at all it makes a stinky dirty tank! I am pushing pellets as I think they will make you happier in the long run.
Keep thinking about the earthworms. They are a great food and can be free!

Bobby
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  • #17
Yea, well yesterday, I went out and got some nice long juicy worms, there real skinny but long. I got about 4, and since I had already fed him his dinner of 6 guppies, I decided to wait until this morning, thursday, I dropped them all in and immediatly the wriggling took his eye, they were gone within 5 seconds. Anyways, hes doing fine, and I will be purchasing a 20 to 30 gallon aqaurium sometime within the next two months.
 
  • #18
I read the comments from the other forum on the locked thread..
and yes, those guys were rude..but..they were also right!
the *way* they said it was rude, but *what* they said was right!

a 20 or 15 gal tank IS far too small for this fish.
the filter did need to be cycled before the fish was added.
undergravel filters totally suck, they are nothing but grunge collectors and create very dirty tanks..a regular power filter would be a much better choice.

I keep cichlids (Discus)..they are in a bare-bottom tank, no gravel at all..best environment for a clean tank.

Spectabilis73's first post was also right-on..Trapsrock was not properly prepared for this fish..
He is trying to make up for it now with knowledge! which is great..so thats cool.

but trapsrock, if lots of people are giving you grief about the way you are keeping your fish, (even if they are being rude about it) dont you think maybe there might actually be something wrong with the way you are keeping your fish? those fish forums can be brutal I know!
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but...they are still right.

here is why I think undergravel filters suck:
http://www.bestfish.com/ug.html

the thing about UGFs is..other filters do biological filtration JUST as well, but dont keeps tons of crap in the tank! which a UGF does..so why bother? the UGF has more drawbacks than other types of filters, and ZERO benefits over other types of filters! there is simply no good reason to use one (over other filters)..and several good reason NOT to use one..

fishless cycling! I love it, best way to prepare a new tank for fish (I helped write this&#33
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http://herne.tripod.com/cycling.html

and here is my experience with cichlids.
http://www.geocities.com/scottychaos/discuspage.htm
http://www.geocities.com/scottychaos/aquapage.htm

Scot
 
  • #19
Hey Scotty! Haven't seen you around for a while!

How are your tanks doing? would you mind posting a new thread and giving us some tanks? Would love to see your discus!
 
  • #20
Hi R.P.
sure, I can start a new thread!
Scot
 
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