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Fair tax

  • #21
I truely believe that this will raise income for the government while reducing the indeviduals tax burdon.  The more people make the more they will spend.  Heck it was proven with the tax cut.  It raised tax revenue by a large margin I just heard it on the news yesterday.  So when you eliminate waste and give the indevidual more money in their take home then they will return the favor by spending.

Oh and this is another thing I would liek to through out.  Does anyone know what the government calls the portion of your check they do not take?  Tax expendatures.  As if they are allowing you to have back some of the money from the government.  Just thought I would throw that in.
 
  • #22
That's a lovely thought, and in the short term it does have truth, but ultimately there is nothing new in the universe. It's all distribution; the conservation of energy. There is balance to all things, and economics is no exception. It doesn't matter how you spend money - you aren't going to make anything genuinely new.
Most of America's 'rising up' happened when we began trading and shortchanging the rest of the world. Trade and commerce is based upon cutting deals in favor of yourself and not the competition; buy low, sell high. Much of the infrastructure which supported the Industrial Revolution that has made our country so rich and powerful came from money generated by the tobacco, cotton and sugar crops; crops worked and culled by slave labor. We took human beings from other cultures in order to build our success. Before that, we owe much of our success to the pillaging of Native American cultures, and before that, back in Europe, much of industry was driven by Anglo-Saxon slaves. It's all give and take, no matter how you dress it up.
As for freeing up waste going to the government, yes, it will, but that 'waste' is paid out to government workers to feed and clothe them and their families. Are they not deserving of an honest wage? Once you eliminate that 'waste,' those people will just find new jobs, and will again be on either the winning or losing side of things. Just think about it; if you have two apples and I have none, there isn't any way for you to give me an apple without losing one yourself; even if you go off and pick more apples from a tree, you'll have to lose some of what you gained in picking if you wish for me to have apples.
I'm sorry to burst your happy little bubble, but somebody always loses. If you think about it, gaining would have no meaning if there weren't such a thing as losing. To be polarized is the natural order of things. You may not always see it, but that only means you're not looking hard enough.
~Joe
 
  • #23
Well, not all the wate in the government is paying is going to the IRS. I accualy think they will still be needed but inanother role. The waste I;m talking about is the man hours spent by corperations trying to avoid taxes. All the millions, make that billions spend on legal advice in not paying taxes. That money can be reaocated to more staff. The man hours it took to do that can be used to do something else. I realize the majority of things is a ying and yang. Give and take, but there is also ways to bend those rules aswell. For those of you who think that rich people are going to spend else where I believe your mistaken. You have the rich buying fancy cars and yacts and all the rest. They are not going to buy second hand. There is a sence of now and the must have it now. Don't worry your not bursting my bubble Joe, but things can be optimized to run better without the beurocratic BS. The rich can have things and be in better situations than they are currently in. They are not going to be paying any more taxes than they are now with the prebates to cover the taxes paid on esential items. Now everything else is a luxury. For you me and everyone else. Yes some have more than others. societies change and jobs change to flow better. Why fight to keep a bloated system when its one of the main things keeping us back? The system is broken, and until someone can give me a better solution that is fair I think this is better at the moment. At the moment a rich lawyer when he wins a multi-milliondollar case will have the winnings transfered to a corperation he runs. He then gets a chack a fraction of the size paid to him and the rest in dividends that are not taxed. Also you have folks working under the table paying no taxes and people making money through illegal means not paying taxes this system I believe will cature those lost taxes too. Thats where the income will be coming from too. So thats fine with everyone in agreement there also has to be some in disagreement so thats fine. Just remember I don;t have a bubble to be burst. I just don;t see it as meger and grim for the poor as some folks do. All they need is a little push in the right direction. Look at it this way. We do agree on sme things. CP's The purpose of this thread was not to make enemies, but to see if anyone here supported it. I really thought there would have been more than one in support. If they are they are not speaking up, but thats fine. As long as they sign the petition and contact their congreman maybe we can give this econemy another boost.
 
  • #24
Josh - The fair tax is a scam and where is it you get your news?  You said,

"Heck it was proven with the tax cut.  It raised tax revenue by a large margin I just heard it on the news yesterday."

and

"Does anyone know what the government calls the portion of your check they do not take?  Tax expendatures."

As for the first, that's because of the scary combination of massive deficit spending, appallingly low savings rates and alarmingly high levels of personal debt.  As Joe mentioned, we're also parasitizing the rest of the world.  But none of it is sustainable.

As for the second quote, tax expenditures are what people can subtract from their taxes, not everything they keep.  This is a decent explanation of them - http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Taxes/Taxshelters/P75680.asp.  A good example is the home mortgage deduction.  And it's huge.  Because of it, the federal government gives more housing assistance to people with high incomes than to people with low incomes.

Don't forget that with Fox News, "The more you watch, the less you know."
 
  • #25
LMAO The more you watch the less you know. OK Its obvious we have different views of the way things are working here, and thats ok. I'm done with this one. Its obvious that nothing I say is going to change anyones mind and I know for a fact I'm not budging. Goes back to socioligy you think your views are rational and I think mine are, but to each other they are irrational. As I said before I expected more support. I got some, but I;m the only one carrying on the fight. I'm done now though. I;m going to still contact my congress man and show my support for the bill. I urge the silent ones who support it to do the same. Those that don't think its a good idea thats fine. I don;t think alot of things that are illegal should be but many do so oh well that what makes this a great country not everyone must agree with everyone. I respect everynes oppinion, and I have to admit I see thing alot differently than most people. Yes I watch fox news and thats the only news I watch. Cnn and everything say the same things, but I just don't like the democrat undertones and the reporters who say um and ahh in every other word. There is one reporter on fox, Geraldo Rivera, that drives me nutts because he does the same thing. The thing about fox is they do not bash Bush every chance they get. Any ways thats a tangent.

"Its wide agreed that the underground economy is huge, and that most of the growth has occured in the past thirty years. This growth stems largely from a growing sence of anger and alienation over the governtment that seems to insist that what we produce is theirs, and that we should be allowed to keep no more than our politicians decide we deserve. Perhaps you remember some elected officials who were opposed to president Bush's tax cuts -- ploititions who were upset because, they claimed, the people who were going to benefir the most from the cuts didn't actually "need" the money. We don't know about you, but many Americans are a bit troubled by the prospect of polititians determining just how much of our hard-earned money we actually "need." Isn't that for us to decide?
Here's a sobering fact: The government has a name -- a label, if you will -- for that portion of your earnings that you manage, by using standard deductions, to keep fro your own uses instead of handing it over to the IRS. What name is that? Get this: They call is "tax expenditures." How do you like that--The government considers the portion of your earneings that you are allowed to keep to be an "expenditure" that actually belonged to the government in the first place. Sorry, but isn't that a little difficult to swallow?"
The FairTax book Pg 95, 96

It also goes on to say that 11 trillion dollars of funds are sheltered from participating in the amaerican econemy and therefor having no tax liability. That is TRILLION dollars that are not getting taxed. So we can keep this totaly screwed up system if you like and keep this country on a slow road. Continue to keep the poor poor and contiue to have the tax burden on the middle class. Continue to have business make decissions based on the tax burdon it will put on the country and consiquesntly contiune to drive jobs to lower tax regions of the world. OR we can stimulate this econemy and bring bisinesses back to the US because we will be the largest and most efective tax shelter inthe world. We could create more jobs because more businesses would come back. Just an example Diamler Crystler(sp) set its head quarters up in Germany because the tax burden was less than if they set it up in the US. Think if it was the other way around. We want to talk about raising our nation exports too, well can't do it when its cheaper to sell a German Mercedies here in the states than it is to sell a Cadilac in Germany. I can quote that section to if you like. By stimulating businesses to not worry about makin decissions based on tax burdens they can spend money on people and technoliogy. People rish and poor would be bringing home more money to spend in OUR econemy. Tourists from abrad would also be contirbuting to OUR taxes when they spend their money on our items. Hookers drug dealers and folks that work under the tabel illegaly would be paying taxes the 11 trillion that is being sheltered outside the US would have no worry of being taxed untill it is spent so it can come back to the states and be effectively used here. So I ask that you look at the bigger picture before making a decision. My rationality seems to tell me that all your arguements against the Fair tax have a reasonable rebutal by the plan. Inevitably many will not see it that way, but thats ok. I will answer any specific questions to the best of my ability, but I'm done trying to defend my postion. Thanks everyone for your responces.
 
  • #26
Interesting I completely forgot how this could bring a small bit of money into our economy by taxing tourists as well as a lot of the undertable stuff that the government can't tax. I'm still not seeing much of a downside. I'm a middle class American and I'm willing to let the rich get a little richer by burdening a little more money.
 
  • #27
Well, I don't think it would be a small bit, but it would bring in some. I don't think we truely grasp the ammount of money that is being made in this country that is not taxed at the moment. So why should they be allowed to get of scott free. Just my opinion. Now assisting the poor is not those people I am refurint to as getting off scott free so dont misconstrude my statements. I belive in helping them, but I also believe they should help themselve.

OK I coudln't help myself. Had to reply again.
 
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