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Thread: What would happen if

  1. #41
    Lauderdale's Avatar
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    The biggest danger to this country is uninformed people who do not realize we are in world war III. We either fight them over there or we fight them over here.

    For God's sake people, support our fighting men...or, if you really feel so strongly against the war, get off your liberal butts, put your money where your mouth is, go to Iraq and fight against us.

    The balance of this post was deleted by me in the interest of peace and love through out the world. Grrrr, mumble, &%&^$%#.

  2. #42
    apple rings.. what more can i say? FlytrapGurl's Avatar
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    Oh, believe me, I hope we win the war. I don't agree with it, but I hope we win. And I support our troops. Just because I don't support the war doesn't mean I don't support the troops.
    Liquid Plummer
    Warning: Do not reuse the bottle to store beverages.

  3. #43
    herenorthere's Avatar
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    I had started this, left to finish something else and returned to find Lauderdale had deleted the incendiary half of his post I had already cut & pasted into a reply. Although I ordinarily respect a person's choice to soften his stance, this time I won't. But I'll respect the desire to tone the discussion down because I agree that's a good thing.

    Before being edited, the post also said:

    Giving the enemy the idea that the majority of our population does not support the war and that by continuing to fight they have some hope if winning is called aiding and abetting...aid and comfort...look that up in your law book and see what the penalty for that is.

    I am sick and tired of US citizens HOPING that we lose the war in Iraq just so they can prove they were right about George Bush.


    If that wasn't hyperbole and you really think questioning our government is a criminal act, then you & I have a fundamental disagreement about what it means to be an American. I think being American means not just having the right, but also having the obligation to question leaders.

    The American tradition of refusing to mindlessly follow a leader (or not following too far or too easily) is one thing that has set the US apart from other powerful societies. We've done bad things, but anyone who equates us with Hitler's Germany or Stalin's USSR has lost all sense of proportion. All of us from the political extremes see a few similarities, but we can't lose sight of the enormous differences.

    Sometimes people have to band together to fight a war. But wars are the ultimate blunt instrument and hurt both sides and everyone in between. So war must be reserved for when there's no other choice. The evidence that the Iraq invasion was a necessary war was, at a minimum, misrepresented.

    I don't know anyone who hopes the US loses in Iraq to prove something about George W. Bush. I do know of some who worried that if things had gone according to neocon fantasies, we'd now be chin deep in Iran instead of just waist deep in Iraq. But that's a worthwhile question and I think it originated among military leaders who understand a thing or two about logistics.

    As for the ... if you really feel so strongly against the war, get off your liberal butts, put your money where your mouth is, go to Iraq and fight against us. that remained in the edited post; once again, you and I seem to have vastly different concepts of this America place where we live. But at least we both like CPs.

    To return to the original subject of this thread, I think both Hillary Clinton and Condoleeza Rice believe whole heartedly in the Rumsfeld/Cheney school of wielding unbridled government power. So both would be awful presidents. Maybe women are less likely to think that way than men, but it's far from universal.
    Bruce in CT

    Madness is something rare in individuals but in groups, parties, peoples, ages it is the rule. Friedrich Nietzsche

  4. #44
    Outsiders71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]The Middle East is not "our problem". And you cannot eliminate the terrorist threat. It's never gonna happen. There will always be a terrorist regime in this world. There will always be people who do things different than us and we're gonna have to learn to deal with it and keep out of it instead of poking our noses in and provoking it even more.
    Once again we do not live in the timeframe George Washington lived in. We cannot just sit and wait at the harbor for a terrorist ship to dock. We are fighting an enemy that does not wear a bright red uniform and says "Hi I'm a terrorist". We are not fighting an enemy that as a collective nation declares war on us.

    Keep our noses out of it? Oh you mean like how Clinton kept his nose out of the Rwanda Genocide? Yeah lets just watch genocide happen. Yeah lets just watch terrorists recruit and gain strength. Afterall if we leave the terrorists alone they will only get bigger and have more resources to WoMD. That wouldn't be a threat to us because "we are minding our business". Then why did 9/11 happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    Oh, I'm "behind the times" now because I'm not one of the 52% of the population that's brainwashed into thinking we have a good President just because he has "Christian values"? How sweet. Let's violate the part of the Bill of Rights that states that no governmental figure shall impose any one religion upon his people. Yeah, ban medical procedure and gay marriage (which is imposing Christianity upon the people). THAT'S the main problem in the world today, THAT will solve ALL our problems!! Don't get me wrong... I believe in God, I pray and I read the Bible every day. But I don't call myself a Christian because I don't share all of the Christian beliefs, most of which were never mentioned in the Bible (which was written by PEOPLE in the first place) anyway. And the most irrational thing about this presidency. Tax cuts for the wealthy? How the hell is that rational?
    52%? Where do you get this figure? I'm pretty sure it is bigger than that. There is no violation of rights, Bush doesn't impose his religion on anyone, if he did he would have been impeeched. Instead he makes decisions based on who he is and what he believes in, which is not unconstitutional. The main problem of the world today? That people have Christian beliefs? I think you got it backwards.

    Ok let me get this straight. You believe in God, you pray and read the Bible everyday, but you don't call yourself a Christian? What Christian beliefs are you talking about that aren't mentioned in the Bible? Christianity revolves all around God's word (aka the Bible) and Jesus Christ. I think you are confused with Catholicism? Christian beliefs all come from the Bible, they aren't man-made. Then you mention that the Bible is written by people anyways... are you some kind of hypocrite? How can you believe in God, share the beliefs that are written in the Bible, then doubt His beliefs because they were written by man? That makes no sense at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    And by "what the war would do to this country", I wasn't only talking about drafting. I was talking about what it would physically do to this country. "Oil crisis" because of the wAr On TeRrOr. You think the price of gas won't keep going up? It will. And what happens when the MAJORITY of this country, working-class people, can't afford to drive anymore? What then?
    You are totally missing the bigger picture. The "oil crisis" has little to do with the war on terror. It has more to do with the fact that OIL IS NOT A RENEWABLE RESOURCE and we are running low on it. I suppose you are one of those people who support digging for oil in Alaska so we save some money on gas right? Our country relies on foreign fuel to run. That's the problem. The solution is a new source of fuel (hydrogen fuel cell, etc). The problem is people like you are stuck on the prices of gas and how high it will be tomorrow. Forget about tomorrow, think about next year. Temporary band-aids will not fix this.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    I don't see how you can look up so much to someone who says junk like "You gotta solve problems with problem solvers"... "Is our children educated?"... and freely states that he'd like to "learn more about federal government". And you people call us unpatriotic rednecks...
    You didn't provide any argument there. You just basically called G.W.B. a dumb monkey which somehow relates to your unpatriotic rednecks part...

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    I AM patriotic. I want what's best for this country, which is not this President. I want somebody in office who can think rationally, give tax cuts to people who need tax cuts, make sure we can afford to drive, make laws that will actually help solve problems in this country, not laws that will help advertise a religion for no reason, and try NOT to go to war every 5 minutes. Maybe then the entire world wouldn't hate us so much and we'd get something done.
    Define thinks rationally. Bush has given tax cuts to people. He can only purpose to congress certain things. It's up to congress to actually do something about problems like the energy crisis. What laws has Bush made to advertise religion? Also how does Bush make laws, considering that isn't a power of the executive branch? The war on terror has been launched, it is a little too late to debate whether or not we should do it. You think that by just isolating ourselves and blinding ourselves to the world that people will like us more? People will hate on us no matter what policy, that is something YOU must understand. Refer to 9/11 and Clinton's policies.
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

  5. #45
    apple rings.. what more can i say? FlytrapGurl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Keep our noses out of it? Oh you mean like how Clinton kept his nose out of the Rwanda Genocide? Yeah lets just watch genocide happen. Yeah lets just watch terrorists recruit and gain strength. Afterall if we leave the terrorists alone they will only get bigger and have more resources to WoMD. That wouldn't be a threat to us because "we are minding our business". Then why did 9/11 happen?
    How is keeping war against them for years and never eliminating them and further depleting our handy supply of soldiers going to solve the problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]52%? Where do you get this figure?
    Final election poll results 2004.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]The main problem of the world today? That people have Christian beliefs? I think you got it backwards.
    I have no problem with people having Christian beliefs. I have a problem with people deciding how the nation should function BASED on Christian beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Ok let me get this straight. You believe in God, you pray and read the Bible everyday, but you don't call yourself a Christian?
    Jews believe in God but don't call themselves Christians, do they not? I believe in God and I read the Bible. That doesn't mean I believe that we're all going to hell because some people get abortions and some people happen to be gay. Killing is also wrong, but just because some people murder doesn't mean we're all going to hell. If you believe it's wrong, then don't do it and shut up and you'll be just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ] Christianity revolves all around God's word (aka the Bible) and Jesus Christ.
    Who said it was God's Word? The Bible? That's thinking in a circle, as you guys like to so often refer to Evolutionists' thinking as, my friend. It may be, it may not be. It was written by people who may or may not have known what the hell they were talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Christian beliefs all come from the Bible, they aren't man-made.
    No, but the Bible is.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Then you mention that the Bible is written by people anyways... are you some kind of hypocrite? How can you believe in God, share the beliefs that are written in the Bible,
    I didn't say I did. I said I READ it.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]then doubt His beliefs because they were written by man? That makes no sense at all.
    "His beliefs"? God has beliefs now? But you just said he wrote this stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I suppose you are one of those people who support digging for oil in Alaska so we save some money on gas right?
    No, bright one, I don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]The solution is a new source of fuel (hydrogen fuel cell, etc).
    Then where is this wonder fuel?

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]The problem is people like you are stuck on the prices of gas and how high it will be tomorrow.
    Oh yes, us and our concerns about the fact that we'll soon no longer afford to drive... how petty.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Forget about tomorrow, think about next year.
    7 bucks a gallon by then.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]You didn't provide any argument there. You just basically called G.W.B. a dumb monkey which somehow relates to your unpatriotic rednecks part...
    Can you clarify that sentence a little?

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Bush has given tax cuts to people.
    If by "people" you mean rich people who don't need tax cuts in the first place, sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]It's up to congress to actually do something about problems like the energy crisis.
    I never said Congress didn't suck too.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]What laws has Bush made to advertise religion?
    Jesus Day, no mo' gay marriage, no mo' [insert apparently vulgar word that starts with "a" and ends with "bortion"]......

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Also how does Bush make laws, considering that isn't a power of the executive branch?
    But who PROPOSES the laws?

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]The war on terror has been launched, it is a little too late to debate whether or not we should do it.
    But we can debate whether or not we should still be there.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]You think that by just isolating ourselves and blinding ourselves to the world that people will like us more?
    Okay, did anyone here hear me say the words "isolating" or "blinding" at any point in time? Anybody? I never said that. I said if we'd stop trying to run the world, other nations would lessen their desire to destroy us.

    Gay marriage has been mentioned only a few times in the Bible and [insert apparently vulgar word that starts with "a" and ends with "bortion"] never, but helping people has been mentioned hundreds of times. And yet Bush has done everything to stop the first two and nothing towards the third. Go figure.
    Liquid Plummer
    Warning: Do not reuse the bottle to store beverages.

  6. #46

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    Here's my 2 cents/beliefs:

    I believe that one of the real problems with this world is democracy. There I said it. Democracy is based on the idea that most of the people are right most of the time. I don't know about you but that makes me think that we're putting a little too much faith in the general public. Alot of voters have little to no political views and vote because of absurd reasons such as: the looks of the politician, they just want to vote for the same person/party they voted for before and there are many more. This turns the political system into one big popularity contest.

    In today's world people only care about the now. Gas prices should be $4/5 per liter at a bare minimum. People need to be having less kids not more. France is wrong paying for more children. with 200 species going extinct every day due to our meddling with this earth we can't afford to increase in size. However necessary changes can't be made in democracy because anyone who proposes necessary changes would be laughed out of a democratic society faster than a poacher at a CP convention. This IMO is the reason why we need to start a revolution, go through the second renaissance, and become a communist society. It was close with Stalin but real communism is the only solution. I mean look at china.

    For the record I'm an atheist. I disagree with religion as it is the source of more problems than it solves. And I realize most will disagree with me but I stick to my beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Quote
    The solution is a new source of fuel (hydrogen fuel cell, etc).

    Then where is this wonder fuel?
    This solution must be reached through a compromise. We must ween money away from NR (non-renewables) and start funding research and commercial production of many RR( renewable resources) primarily wind and hydrogen. We can also focus on new and theoretical forms of nuclear fusion/fission. However I don't worry because I know for a fact that it will be crunch time soon when gas starts costing $10/Gallon and no one can afford to drive. The greatest inventions are created to fit a need which will be here soon, say in the next 4-5 years.

    Also we must remember that Bush is just the face of a very corrupted political system.

    WWIII is not here yet. When it is you will know. One of my favorites quotes is from Einstein:

    "If there is a WWIII than WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones"

    Anyway that's my opinion,

    Zac
    "You can never underestimate the stupidity of the general public" -Scott Adams-

  7. #47

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    Well said zac, well said. Needless to say I agree with most if not all of what you said.

  8. #48
    Tropical Fish Enthusiast jimscott's Avatar
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    My observation is that all political and economic systems have proven themselves to be corruptable, no matter how well-intentioned the individuals are that espouse them. People are flawed and opportunistic.

    Having said that, for an economic system, I much prefer the "Robin Hood effect" / socialism. The theory is great. Too bad the human element bespoils it.

    For a political system. although my heart is with a congregational style of decision making, very little gets done. The last thing I want is anything that smells of power in the hands of the few or one. That brings us to what is called the presbyterian approach, which is what our country is based upon, one in which there are enough checks & balances to (theoretically) minimize human abuses, and yet allow for decisons to be made and changes to be made, as the times change (amendments). All inevitable abuses aside, I like these economic and political approaches.

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