What would happen if

[Clint]

i dont see why the government has any affiliation with any marriage at all. marriage is a covenant between the two people and god isn't it? isn't that the church's business and not the governments?

 

[herenorthere]

Some people see marriage as a covenant between two people and God.  Some don't.  Plenty of people manage to get married without any religious involvement whatsoever.  But everyone who marries is entering into a legally enforceable contract, whether married in a church, on a mountaintop, or by an Elvis impersonator in Vegas.

 

[Lauderdale]

Quote[/b] ]WWIII is not here yet. When it is you will know. One of my favorites quotes is from Einstein: "If there is a WWIII than WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones"

What would Einstein call this...Vandalism?

 

[Capslock]

A terrorist attack from a rag-tag collection of Saudis and other non-Iraqis. Nothing more. The rest of the world has long learned to deal with this sort of thing without crying WWIII.

9/11 was certainly not a war. You want to see a war, go check out Fallujah. That's what a war is. 9/11 was just a large-scale Oklahoma City bombing.

The incredibly misguided escapade into Iraq has served to vastly increase the number of terorists by giving them a rallying point, and by confirming the most paranoid fears about America.

The failures of the current administration are reflected in Bush's free-fall in the polls and the current and pending criminal indictments against the GOP leadership in the house, senate, and White House. They have imposed a culture of corruption and incompetence that will take decades to repair.

Nobody else has said it, but I hope we DO "lose" the war. By leaving today. The objectives of this war were ill-defined and unattainable with the plan in place. Most of all, they were imperialistic and opportunistic. In many respects, it is about controlling the oil. Do we really want to "win" something that was wrong to begin with? I don't want to see another American die for nothing. Bring them home. Today.

A woman President is LESS likely to engage in the dry-drunk arrogance and obstinence that Bush displays. They tend to be more empathetic, and less prone to testosterone-fueled desires to be a "war President".

Bush is at 39% approval and falling. His approval among black Americans is an embarrassing 2%. TWO percent. I can't see a woman ever having the sort of indifference that produces such numbers.

Capslock <-- getting partisan. Just my opinions, folks!

 

[PlantAKiss]

Quote[/b] ]I see women who are blinded by their emotions and unable to make a logical decisions.

I would think any woman who has risen in the political ranks high enough to have the qualifications to run for President would not be some flighty, hormone-flippy bimbo.

 

[zac]

einstein would call that a terrorist attack. 2752 peolpe died on 9/11. 48,231,700 are estimated to have died in WWII. The death toll of a war fought with NUCLEAR weapons would be exponential. Try 60-70% of the world population. And you think 9/11 was even part of a war...

Zac

 

[Outsiders71]

You guys are still missing something. First off Bush's approval ratings? Who cares? Approval ratings mean nothing. You can't always be popular when you have to make the right decisions. The black community will always be low in approval ratings. The million more march was a good example that they aren't connecting with conservatives, which is partially the conservatives fault. If you notice there's usually a high concentration of democratic liberalism in urban areas. Conservatives need to reach out to these people more and get their ideals out there.

Iraq = for oil? Update your attacks people! Oil may run the country today but tomorrow it will be something else. Oil is just a crappy energy source and it is not worth the price or foreign control. 2010 there will be hydrogen fuel cell cars by GM on the market. If you want to do something, start supporting that. It's time we drop the oil industry.

People claim that the War on Iraq was an abandonment on the war on terror. If this is true how come there are so many insurgents/terrorists in Iraq? How come after Baghdad fell the war wasn't over? Because there are terrorists there, and that's why we are still there!

 

[jimscott]

I've heard it said that "big oil" has done their R & D already and we won't see alternatives in earnest until they can successfelly turn a profit. They're not there, yet. But when they can no longer benefit from gouging us, they'll come to our rescue, like a knight in shining armor, with the solution that only they can provide.

 

[shokuchuu]

Quote[/b] ]Because there are terrorists there, and that's why we are still there!

The only terrorists I know of in Iraq are the ones who capture and grasp the fates of hostages past - rest in peace - present, and future. Otherwise the rest are merely very angry rebels. It's far too easy to name them terrorists and we should reconsider and use these terms more carefully.
Plus I can't imagine you yourself sitting quietly welcoming a foreign force in your homeland because they find the system corrupt. Personally I couldn't either, unless I truly believe the system is corrupt. So what do we do? We rebel and fight fire with fire all because we have different opinions on what system is better for the country and its citizens. I mean, isn't that what patriotism is about?



Cheers

 

[jimscott]

Quote[/b] (PlantAKiss @ Oct. 18 2005,12:53)]I would think any woman who has risen in the political ranks high enough to have the qualifications to run for President would not be some flighty, hormone-flippy bimbo.

That reminds me... "Commander and Chief" is on tonight! Go, Geena, go!

 

[PlantAKiss]

I think Christiann Amanpour would make a good President.

 

[Ozzy]

Very well said Amori. Most of the real terriost in Iraq are from other countries. They are there because we are there because we are there. They have come from Syria, Pakistan, Afgainstan and a few other countries. No matter where we go, they will follow and attack us.
We had Iraq contained. They were very little threat to us. Bush had this war planned before he ever took office, because he wanted to be the one to finish his daddy's job. If you will remember Saddam put a hit out on G.Bush sr. Do you think Jr. is the type of guy not to get revenge for that? This was all part of his plan.
Think about this, If another goverment came in and took over your country, the army killed your father and brothers, would you just welcome them in with a smile on your face? No you'd see them and an unwanted invader and you'd stand up and fight.
The real terriost (from other countires) are recruiting these guys and turning them into suiside bombers.
When the war started in Iraq it was because they had all these dangerous weapons, when they couldn't find in weapons the war turned into Iraqy freedom. The biggest scam ever pulled on the american people. Even bigger than the gas prices. And Big surprise, bush is in the oil business.

 

[herenorthere]

Christian Amanpour's husband was part of the Clinton administration State Department and she was accused (probably correctly) of spinning news coverage to favor the Clinton administration's point of view.  Though I guess that makes her perfectly qualified for a role in what passes for government during the last couple decades.

 

[seedjar]

Quote[/b] (0zzy @ Oct. 18 2005,3:43)]Bush had this war planned before he ever took office, because he wanted to be the one to finish his daddy's job. If you will remember Saddam put a hit out on G.Bush sr. Do you think Jr. is the type of guy not to get revenge for that?

Isn't there some soundbite floating around out there where Jr. specifically says he wants revenge for the hit put out on Sr.? Or was that just some anti-Bush rhetoric? I think it's really funny how much of major US affairs has fallen to the whims of the good ol' boys. If you look up Jr.'s old college buddies, you'll find a shocking number of them in all sorts of very high places. Isn't life grand?
And Outsiders71, at the risk of being quarrelsome, since when weren't approval ratings important? What do you think the job of president is there for? Shouldn't the president represent the will of the people and be there to keep the houses in check and working towards our mutual goals? If the president's approval rating is low, that tends to mean that they aren't doing their job properly.
The way I've interpreted our system of government, being president (or any sort of politician) doesn't mean you get to rule the country your way; it specifically means that you must yield to the opinion of the people, to use your authority to act as their most trusted representative. If it were otherwise, we'd have an oligarchy, not a democracy. That's why politicians care about approval ratings at all - because if people don't like what they're doing, they'll be out of a job.
~Joe

 

[Ozzy]

Quote[/b] ]because if people don't like what they're doing, they'll be out of a job.

Uness of course they steal elections.

 

[herenorthere]

It's never necessary to make up stuff about Bush.

As was widely reported three years ago (for example, see http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/27/bush.war.talk/) Bush said, "After all, this is the guy who tried to kill my dad."

 

[seedjar]

Quote[/b] (herenorthere @ Oct. 18 2005,4:20)]It's never necessary to make up stuff about Bush.

But it's not too hard to get away with anymore.
~Joe

 

[FlytrapGurl]

Quote[/b] ]if we stay on the offense we can help keep terrorists at bay by 1) eliminating them

You cannot eliminate all terrorists. There will always be terrorists and you can't stop that. How many times do I have to say this?  

Quote[/b] ]Thanks for the link to the source.

YOU DON'T NEED A LINK! It's a fact! Of course, that's if you believe all the right-wing 24-hour news channels, then it's a fact.

Quote[/b] ]It appears it was 51% of the nation that was brainwashed at the time of the 2004 Presidental election.  While 48% of the population remained normal and supported gay marriage.

Whatever that meant.

Quote[/b] ]I know you have a problem with the fact that G.W.B is pro-life and anti gay-marriage.  Can you include an argument how these beliefs affect the way our nation functions?

For one, if he manages to outlaw gay marriage and [insert apparently vulgar word that starts with "a" and ends with "bortion"] as well as whatever other horribly sinful things he's against, it's not going to help the nation at all. All it's going to do is cause people to get even more P.O.ed and find illegal ways do to it (especially in the case of [insert apparently vulgar word starting with
"a" and ending with "bortion"]... outlaw that and people will go back to dangerous, illegal methods to get it done.. ever heard of the wire coat hanger method?).  

Quote[/b] ]My bad I guess I assumed you had faith/relationship with  God since you believe there is a God.  Usually people who believe in God and read the Bible (which is considered the word of God by Christians and Jews) have faith.  Otherwise you wouldn't have a problem with the teachings of the book you are reading.  I'm sorry but no one will silence my faith in Christ.  Thank you for reassuring me though that I will be fine.

When did I say I didn't have faith in Christ? I do. And I think the Bible is great. It's a great religious book. But nothing proves anything better than prophetic humans wrote it.

Quote[/b] ]It's Christian/Jewish/Catholic <insert religion that deals with bible here> belief that the Bible is God's word.

Based on...?

Quote[/b] ]I don't understand what your talking about, circle thinking...evolutionists thinking, they're your friends??

No, I was referring to you when I said "my friend". It's a figure of speech.

Quote[/b] ]From a perspective without faith it may be.

When did I say I didn't have faith? Why the hell do you have to worship the Bible like it's God itself to have faith?

Quote[/b] ]I guess there's a better word for that.  His will.

I believe God has a will. That doesn't prove the Bible was written by the hand of God. I have nothing against the Bible whatsoever. I don't NOT believe it. But I see no reason to believe it's written by God.

Quote[/b] ]Why not it will lower gas prices!

That's my secondary concern. My primary concern is the fact that there is still a planet Earth to inhabit. Otherwise there's no use in lowering gas prices.

Quote[/b] ]In air.  In water.

But not in cars!

Quote[/b] ]You can continue to support the oil industry and give them that $7.

I don't really have a CHOICE. That doesn't mean I SUPPORT the oil industry.

Quote[/b] ]I don't see how you can look up so much to someone who says junk like "You gotta solve problems with problem solvers"... "Is our children educated?"... and freely states that he'd like to "learn more about federal government". And you people call us unpatriotic rednecks...

What is there to clarify? What I was trying to say as clearly as possible was that I don't understand how you can have so much faith in someone who obviously slept in class, and then you call us (left-wing, liberals, libertarians, Democrats, Independents.. basically everyone but right-wing conservatives), who can actually form words and speak consistently, unpatriotic rednecks.

Quote[/b] ]Out of the question how old are you?

Doesn't matter how old I am. Find out for yourself, it's not that hard to find. My age isn't the question. The only reason you want to know is so you can automatically disregard everything I say only due to my age anyway.

Quote[/b] ]No more gay marriage?  That was something that was left to the states to vote on, not G.W.B.  medical procedure?  Ever hear of Roe vs Wade?  It still exists and G.W.B. didn't make or pass any laws that constitutionally banned it.

That's because there are too many level-headed people who won't pass it. If he could, he would.

Quote[/b] ]I don't have the time to give a lesson on the 3 branches of Gov't, but it is the Legislative branch, the senators and representatives that we vote in that make the laws.  G.W.B. can propose laws but it is not his duty.  He vetos or signs the bill.

Therefore it doesn't even matter. If ridiculous laws get passed that help nobody, the Congress sucks for passing it and GWB sucks for signing it.

Quote[/b] ]There's nothing to debate really.  If we were to pull out of Iraq prematurely (now),

Prematurely? Why would it be premature?

Quote[/b] ]Iraq would fall to the insurgents.  That would be why we are still there now.

It's not that I don't care about the Iraqis... I do, really. But we never signed anything stating what happened in other countries was any of our business. They set up that kind of government, they can deal with it.

Quote[/b] ]When you ignore foreign affairs, that implies that we are isolating or blinding ourselves from foreign problems.

Putting words into my mouth again. I did NOT say "ignore". I said STAY OUT OF. As in, DON'T throw the first punch. If they're not screwing with you, it's not your problem. Keep an eye on it, but don't jump right into war assuming the worst is going to happen if you don't. If they screw with you, fine. Fight it. War should NOT be a preventative action. It should be a DEFENSIVE action. If you use war as a preventative action, you might as well go to war with half the countries on the planet.

Quote[/b] ]Once again when Clinton was in office he knew about Osama.  He knew about Al Qaeda.  He left them alone and what happened?

Nothing. Not until Bush was elected.

Quote[/b] ]Gay marriage is mentioned in the bible?:  http://bible.christianity.com/Onlin...&section=0&version=all&new=1&oq=homosexuality

There is no listing of gay marriage.  However there is a listing of homosexuality:
http://bible.christianity.com/OnlineS....arriage[/URL

Oh, now we're getting technical with words.

Murder is also mentioned in the bible. There are laws against THAT and IT still happens. Just because some people still do it doesn't condemn us all to hell, now does it? So why do so many think medical procedure does?

Quote[/b] ]medical procedure is not directly in the Bible but it is a termination of a living, growing human being.  I guess it comes down to morals and values, which this culture continually sets lower and lower like a limbo bar.

I'm not even getting into a BS a.bortion debate again, but I will say this: if you believe it's wrong, then DON'T DO IT. I don't care if that's your belief. That's fine. Whatever. I'll accept that and respect it. But it's none of your business to try to force your beliefs onto others.

Quote[/b] ]How hasn't Bush helped people?   You mean he hasn't helped terrorists who want to kill innocent U.S. citizens?

What the hell? How did you get that out of what I said? I'm talking about the AMERICAN PEOPLE. Yeah, that's right... those sidenotes and afterthoughts over here. How about helping your own people once in a while? What did Bush do for the hurricane victims? Drone on and on about how much of a horrible trajedy it was.. sure. But sympathizing doesn't help anybody. WE did all the work. WE raised money for them. WE collected items for them. WE brought it to them. Not the government.

 

[wolf9striker]

Quote[/b] (0zzy @ Oct. 18 2005,6:43)]Very well said Amori. Most of the real terriost in Iraq are from other countries. They are there because we are there because we are there. They have come from Syria, Pakistan, Afgainstan and a few other countries. No matter where we go, they will follow and attack us.

Excellent statement Ozzy and it proves my point perfectly. Either we fight them there on their soil, have unfortunate Iraqi civilian casualties. Or we fight them here in the U.S. and have unfortunate American civilian casualties. For all you people who want to complain about us(trained soldiers, who except the riks and know how to handle the situation) being there think to yourself would you rather us be fighting them in New York, Detroit, Miami, your back yard? Because make no qualms about it, we are going to have to fight them. They will either kill us or die trying, I for one would rather put the offensive to them rather then trying to protect our civilians on our soil.

What is the death toll of U.S. citizens (U.S. soldiers & U.S.) in Iraq now? 2000 some last I heard. Think about how many that would be if we had to fight them here. Ever think about why we have not been attacked here since 9-11? Do you think it is because the terrorist decided they got their point across and feel no more attacks are neccessary? Or could it be they are to busy running and hiding from 5.56 rounds to cordinate and attack?

No one likes war, and war in Iraqi is HORRIBLE. That place is a hell hole. I spent 9 months w/o a shower and 4 months w/o a hot meal. Could we have had a better plan before going in? I am sure we could have, but we have adjusted and improved our stragities. As stated before this is the first war of its kind. I for one thank god every night that in this particular time in the world we had a president with balls enough to do what needed to be done even though it wasnt popular opinion. What did your momma tell you about doing what other kids to in school? Do what is right, not what is popular!

 

[Outsiders71]

Sigh...

Quote[/b] ]
You cannot eliminate all terrorists. There will always be terrorists and you can't stop that. How many times do I have to say this?

I never said ALL terrorists. Obviously we can't eliminate them all, DUH! But it only takes one to fly an airplane into a building, it only takes one to strap a nuke to their chest, it only takes one to release some kind of chemical agent....

Quote[/b] ]
YOU DON'T NEED A LINK! It's a fact! Of course, that's if you believe all the right-wing 24-hour news channels, then it's a fact.

I thanked you for giving me the source from where you got your 52% from. You then turn around and slap me stating I shoud know this... If I DID know the statistic I wouldn't have ASKED you that question.

Quote[/b] ]
Whatever that meant.

You were off 1%. IT'S A FACT!

[qute]
For one, if he manages to outlaw gay marriage and [insert apparently vulgar word that starts with "a" and ends with "bortion"] as well as whatever other horribly sinful things he's against, it's not going to help the nation at all. All it's going to do is cause people to get even more P.O.ed and find illegal ways do to it (especially in the case of [insert apparently vulgar word starting with
"a" and ending with "bortion"]... outlaw that and people will go back to dangerous, illegal methods to get it done.. ever heard of the wire coat hanger method?).
[/quote]

You made the case that it won't help the nation at all. How will it help it? There has never been such a thing as gay marriage before. If people want to be gay that is their business, but they shouldn't be asking for marriage. Would it be safe to say that you are ok with gay couples adopting and raising an orphan? A.bortion has existed since the age of time, does that mean we should legalize it? No. What about all those potheads should we legalize marijuana? Should we legalize cocaine? Should we legalize theft and violent act? We need to set standards in this country, not lower standards because it PO the few and the immoral. There's a difference between attempting to enforce religious beliefs and moral beliefs. Morality is a seperate entity, and therefore there is nothing wrong with supporting it.

Quote[/b] ]
When did I say I didn't have faith in Christ? I do. And I think the Bible is great. It's a great religious book. But nothing proves anything better than prophetic humans wrote it.

I never said anything about having faith in Christ. I said faith.

Quote[/b] ]
Based on...?

If I'm wrong prove me wrong. Don't ask me a question. It's common knowledge those religions believe the bible is the word of God. If you can come up with a source that can backup your argument, then I'll stand corrected.

Quote[/b] ]
When did I say I didn't have faith? Why the hell do you have to worship the Bible like it's God itself to have faith?

Ok let me get this straight. You have faith, you believe in Jesus Christ but you will not accept the bible as the word of God?

It is obvious you don't believe in the Bible based on your views of a.bortion and gay marriage but do you realize that you also do not believe in the same Jesus Christ that I believe in? The Bible was written by a human hand, but it was not written by human-being alone. If you believe it was, then the God you believe in and the Christ you have faith in is nothing but a fictional book. A fiction you don't take seriously in your heart.

Quote[/b] ]
Doesn't matter how old I am. Find out for yourself, it's not that hard to find. My age isn't the question. The only reason you want to know is so you can automatically disregard everything I say only due to my age anyway.

Yes it does matter how old you are based on what I was stating. You were stating that Bush doesn't give tax cuts to the middle-class, and only to the rich. Well obviously you didn't get one entitled to "Flytrapgirl" because you are still living with your family. You kind of gave yourself away on the last sentence but there really is no reason to go there it is self evident in what you type.

Quote[/b] ]
That's because there are too many level-headed people who won't pass it. If he could, he would.

Lets not go off on a tangent here, accept that you were wrong. Bush didn't pass any of those laws that you gave examples to, the question was not would he if he could.

Quote[/b] ]
Therefore it doesn't even matter. If ridiculous laws get passed that help nobody, the Congress sucks for passing it and GWB sucks for signing it.

Therefore you go off on a tangent again and are wrong again. It does matter because if you can't understand simple concepts on how our gov't works then you shouldn't be claiming something when you have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote[/b] ]
Prematurely? Why would it be premature?

Read the next sentence I wrote. The insurgents would take over Iraq without our support at this point of time. In the future when they are enough well trained Iraqi soldiers, they will be able to handle it themselves. This isn't the time.

Quote[/b] ]
It's not that I don't care about the Iraqis... I do, really. But we never signed anything stating what happened in other countries was any of our business. They set up that kind of government, they can deal with it.

We didn't have to sign a contract, we went in there and freed them. Now we have to protect them until they are established and can handle it themselves. You honestly believe the Iraqi's setup that Gov't? You mean to tell me they liked living how they were under Saddam. You must be crazy and a crappy believer in Christ. What kind of person who believes in Christ would say, "oh well it is on them"? It doesn't matter really because it was already established that you have faith in a different Jesus Christ.

Quote[/b] ]
Putting words into my mouth again. I did NOT say "ignore". I said STAY OUT OF. As in, DON'T throw the first punch. If they're not screwing with you, it's not your problem. Keep an eye on it, but don't jump right into war assuming the worst is going to happen if you don't. If they screw with you, fine. Fight it. War should NOT be a preventative action. It should be a DEFENSIVE action. If you use war as a preventative action, you might as well go to war with half the countries on the planet.

Stay out of ~= ignore. How else can you prevent a terrorist attack? I can tell you that it is not by leaving them alone in their terrorist cell camps. Once again you have nothing to support your view because there's nothing to support it.

Quote[/b] ]
Nothing. Not until Bush was elected.

That just proves you are ignorant to what happens here:

In 1993, the first World Trade Center bombing killed six people.

In 1998, the bombing of two U.S. embassies in Africa killed 224.

Both were the work of al-Qaida and bin Laden, who in 1998 declared holy war on America, making him arguably the most wanted man in the world.

In 1998, President Clinton announced, “We will use all the means at our disposal to bring those responsible to justice, no matter what or how long it takes.”

Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4540958/

Quote[/b] ]
Oh, now we're getting technical with words.

Murder is also mentioned in the bible. There are laws against THAT and IT still happens. Just because some people still do it doesn't condemn us all to hell, now does it? So why do so many think medical procedure does?

You like to forget what you say don't you? I am not getting "technical" with words. You made the claim stating that gay marriage is in the Bible. Stick to your claim instead of worming around the fact you are wrong. There is nothing in the Bible about gay marriage. I never said anything about murder. What are you trying to prove? Your arguments are as stable as balsa wood supporting an elephant. Everyone knows all the laws that were ever made get broken, not matter if it is law or not. What does some people breaking the law have to do with "condeming us all to hell". First off breaking the law and your salvation have nothing to do with eachother. Secondly how can someone else do something that makes everyone condemned to hell? Why do so many people thin a.bortions are wrong? IT IS IMMORAL! YOU ARE KILLING LIFE, A LIVING HUMAN BEING! Put the religion aside, it is still wrong, it's called morals! You can never convince someone that it is moral to have a.bortions. Once again how can someone who believes in the Son of God believe in immoral things as a.bortions.

Quote[/b] ]
I'm not even getting into a BS a.bortion debate again, but I will say this: if you believe it's wrong, then DON'T DO IT. I don't care if that's your belief. That's fine. Whatever. I'll accept that and respect it. But it's none of your business to try to force your beliefs onto others.

A BS a.bortion debate? There's no BS here. It is none of my business that someone is taking someone elses life? Well if you happen to be walking the city streets one night and get killed by a hangar I will remember your belief. I will accept and respect that that murderer had something against you and thought it would be best that you were killed. When people start saying how wrong it was for you to be killed I will tell them not to try to force their beliefs on me, and to mind their own business.

Quote[/b] ]
What the hell? How did you get that out of what I said? I'm talking about the AMERICAN PEOPLE. Yeah, that's right... those sidenotes and afterthoughts over here. How about helping your own people once in a while? What did Bush do for the hurricane victims? Drone on and on about how much of a horrible trajedy it was.. sure. But sympathizing doesn't help anybody. WE did all the work. WE raised money for them. WE collected items for them. WE brought it to them. Not the government.

So wait your saying that the humanitarian effort to help the people out in New Orleans was soley non-government support? Our Gov't did nothing? You are seriously clueless.