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Here goeas another one

  • #61
Possibly the fact that such a thing does not exist. ;)
 
  • #62
[b said:
Quote[/b] (lol @ Dec. 07 2005,2:01)]I have encountered absolutely nothing to suggest any sort of long term problems.  This is why many of the good, true sellers prefer that you start with something less potent than the fully energised ORMUS gold (or white powder gold).  The only threat to be reported in the possibility of the monoatomic ORMUS minerals to revert back to a metallic state inside the stomach, due to stomach acids.  This would really only happen when using poorly refined ORMUS minerals.  David Hudson (the one who pattented the process for forming, extracting and refining,  the ORMUS minerals) along with very old alchemical texts describe a necesary process of energising the white powder of gold, to keep it in a high spin state.  When fully energised, the pure white powder of gold loses much of it's weight, is pure white, and doesn't hold the danger of returning to a metallic state.
OK, first, why would you expect to hear about negative results? ORMEs haven't been clinically studied in the long term, and beyond that, you haven't cited a single source critical of the theory. Second, how is it that adding energy to these things makes them lose weight? That just doesn't make sense. Doesn't an energetic body impose a greater gravatic force than an uncharged one of equivalent mass?
The point people are trying to make is not that these ideas are 'too far out' or you're too young; it's precisely that you don't have convincing evidence - it's exactly the same protest we had to Turi. You've only shown one side of the story, and all you can do is point us to poorly-written secondary accounts written from primary literature that has nothing or little to do with ORMEs in particular. Citing 'very old alchemical texts' is nowhere near scientific - it's hardly even compelling, with all the poor science conducted in the name of alchemy. The documents you refer to are unjustified speculation.
I can tell you right now that, whatever David Hudson is writing, some of it came from the fact that he holds the patent and stands to make money on any interest regarding ORMEs, be they real or not. You need to find somebody else who's jazzed about ORMEs to latch on to, because chances are this guy is feeding you a load. There are just too many holes; the claims that these publications make vaguely defy known laws of physics, and if they really had these miraculous properties, they would be too valuable to have escaped the notice of pharmecutical and military developers.
And on a final note, when a company has to interview you before deciding to sell you their product, it generally means they're looking to cover their butt for something. ORMEs aren't weapons or state secrets, so my only thought on why they wanted to know so much about you is that they can't afford to sell this stuff to someone who might sue them for misinformation or false advertisement. Also, you've got to think; if they have time to interview every customer as thoroughly as you claim, how much business could they really be doing? It has to be immensely profitable to justify those procedures.
~Joe
 
  • #63
[b said:
Quote[/b] (seedjar @ Dec. 07 2005,10:38)]There are just too many holes; the claims that these publications make vaguely defy known laws of physics
"The gifts that go with this are:  perfect telepathy, you can know good and evil when it’s in the room with you, you also can project your thoughts into someone else’s mind.  You can levitate, you can walk on water, because it’s flowing so much light within you that you literally don’t attract gravity.  And when you understand that when you exclude all external magnetic fields, when you exclude gravity, you are no longer of this space time.  You become a fifth dimensional being.  You can literally think where you would like to be, and go there.  Just disappear.  You also have other attributes that they go into.  You can heal by the laying on of hands, and can cleanse and resurrect the dead within two or three days after they died.  You have so much energy that you can literally embrace people and bring light and energy back into them. "  (taken from www.halexandria.org)

I guess you could put it that way. :p

Seriously, is this even worth discussing?  I am at loss to see how anyone could actually believe these claims.
 
  • #64
Evidently, there are a lot of subject of physics that you DON'T understand, particularly the newer types of physics that they didn't teach you in high school
smile_h_32.gif
. I don't blame you for not being able to understand a lot of the principles behind it, but it's a childish mistake to so needlessly dismiss it because you don't understand, or take the time to learn it. That's all I can say. And you want to know why I haven't reported any views against it? Because I haven'ty been able to find any
mad.gif
! Simple as that! I can't find anyhting more than a word or two against the existance of ORMES, and certainly not anything that would even be of the standards of views that advocate the existance of ORMES. In fact, about the only views I've heard from you guys against their existence are ones that you have made up in your own little minds, and have nothing scientific to back them up! So I guess we're just going to stay here in limbo, aren't we? Or perhaps I should say "you".
 
  • #65
I have dropped the advocation for spiritual claims, because any spiritual affects are completely dependant of the user of ORMEs, and has little scientific basis. Everything else physical and historical can be proven, and ignored if "you" so chose.
 
  • #66
[b said:
Quote[/b] (lol @ Dec. 07 2005,10:55)]Evidently, there are a lot of subject of physics that you DON'T understand, particularly the newer types of physics that they didn't teach you in high school
smile_h_32.gif
.  
Fortunately in my time alchemy had no place in the physics classroom.  Have things changed?

I also apologise for not realising that you had a deep understanding of the "newer types of physics".  Perhaps you could point me to an article that "advocates the existance of ORMEs" in a scientific context?  A research paper published in a well known scientific journal maybe?
 
  • #67
Dude, you really need to start looking into the people who you cite from; it has a big impact on your personal credibility when you get into the world of peer review. Laurence Gardner's public history is characterized by lies, one most notably that he is the 'Presidential Attaché' to the European Council of Princes, which has been demonstrated to be false; not before, not now, not ever. I find it diminishing that Googling any of your sources seems to turn up results from halexandria.org in the top three or four returned. I know it is not fun to be ascribed to a group, but if your topic is consistently related primarily to a website devoted to New-Age philosophizing, it's a New-Age topic. And if you choose to fanatically advocate those views, that makes you a New-Ager.
I mean, really, take a look at that website; UFO and Bible consipracies, this ORMUS stuff - they even stomp all over mathematics by attempting to argue that transcendental numbers are not transcendental in the philosophical sense. They can't even grasp that the term 'transcendental number' is a simile to the philosophical idea of transcendance. No one in their right mind has ever proposed that transcendental numbers have anything to do with transcending conciousness or the physical plane. That's utter nonsense; I lost a little bit of my love for humanity when I saw it. Come on, they can't spot figurative language? That's a skill tested on seventh-grade standardized reading tests. Clearly, they have no idea what they are talking about and simply grasping at buzzwords from legitimate sciences. Their relation of topics is nothing more than semantic - when I read the articles given there is no evidence that the authors had much more than a passing understanding of the topics in question.

[b said:
Quote[/b] (lol @ Dec. 07 2005,2:55)]Evidently, there are a lot of subject of physics that you DON'T understand, particularly the newer types of physics that they didn't teach you in high school
smile_h_32.gif
.  I don't blame you for not being able to understand a lot of the principles behind it, but it's a childish mistake to so needlessly dismiss it because you don't understand, or take the time to learn it.

Hi, yeah, I'm here at one of the nation's most highly regarded public undergradute science programs, and this year as a four credit aside to my math studies I'm building a particle accelerator with a few friends from my physics class. Outside of school I'm developing the electronics for a compact IR spectrometer for life support applications. When I was in high school I was earning AP credits writing papers on M-theory and recent lab studies of low-temperature nuclear fusion in palladium alloys. And I take pleasure in noting that I was doing these papers from credible, thoroughly reviewed primary sources, not spending my time in idle debate on topics which I couldn't articulate or substantiate. Please don't go telling me what I do and do not know, because I'm sure we could all poke a little fun if we cared to sink to that level.
~Joe
 
  • #68
[b said:
Quote[/b] (lol @ Dec. 07 2005,10:55)]And you want to know why I haven't reported any views against it?  Because I haven'ty been able to find any
mad.gif
!
Perhaps I could help?

Here's a website detailing all the various pseudo-science scams you're ever likely to encounter.  Look under "Really Weird Stuff" for information on ORMEs.

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/wonkywater.html
 
  • #69
[b said:
Quote[/b] (lol @ Dec. 07 2005,2:57)]I have dropped the advocation for spiritual claims, because any spiritual affects are completely dependant of the user of ORMEs, and has little scientific basis.  Everything else physical and historical can be proven, and ignored if "you" so chose.
OK, first off, how can you scientifically rule out the possibility of a standard 'spiritual effect?' If this stuff really can make me transcend, why wouldn't you? Second, how much of this historical stuff can really be proven? It's written somewhere; so what? I happen to know there are millions of copies of Lovecraft novels floating around; does that mean that some tentacle god is waiting for fish people to sacrifice me to him in the basement of an old Victorian mansion?
By your argument, the contents of the Bible are also true. If the physical stuff can be proven, where's your proof? I think that the fact that legitimate science resources have no information on ORMEs as an accepted compontent of chemistry and physics places the burden of proof upon you. All I could find was this poke at the work of David Hudson and Laurence Gardner; letters to New Scientist. Oh, wait, here we go; a physics grad student at U. of Michigan on the history of ORMEs.
Point and set.
~Joe

PS - Hey nep_grower, I think my roommate said he's brewing some wonky water for his medicinal chemistry class, hehe.
 
  • #70
OK, in both of the sources you posted, I have note seen or heard of most of the claims that those sources say are invloved with ORMEs. Such as their relation to energised water (which I don't really believe in), and teleportation or whatever that college student was talking about. I search hard for evidence for and against this, and I find far more credible sources that would suggest this is real. If it really wasn't, with the number of people I've seen interested in this stuff, there would be more info against ORmes on the net. It just wouldn't make sense in the real world for that to happen if this was all a hoax. It doesn't happen that way gentlemen.
 
  • #71
Evidence against ORMEs isn't on the net because they were debunked in the late eighties and early ninties, before the World Wide Web was even invented. Nobody credible cares about them any more, apparently. And yes, this is how hoaxes work; some con artist comes up with an interesting or tempting conclusion and disseminates it, then a bunch of people who aren't looking at the topic objectively get excited about it, and banter a bunch of terms around without making any scientific progress or having any regard for what the scientific community cares to contribute. If it's not a hoax, it's still certainly not science.
~Joe
 
  • #72
Maybe the reason why there aren't many scientific sources debunking these unsubstantiated claims is because they have been completely ignored by the scientific community from the get go?

EDIT: Beaten. Couldn't have put it better myself, seedjar.
 
  • #77
Use of scientific terminology does not a scientific article make.

It is a scam, plain and simple.  It is written in such away as to fool those who may not have sufficient scientific knowledge and understanding to realise that it is, at its heart, complete rubbish.

I have neither the time nor the desire to pick this article apart, but I will at least disprove one thing.  The author states:

"What classical science does not teach is that there is, in
fact, another phase of matter called "monatomic." These
materials have ceramic-like properties."

This is complete rubbish.  "Monatomic" simply refers to an element having atoms which are free of eachother, in much the same way that hydrogen is 'diatomic' in its natural state.  

Helium is monatomic, Hydrogen is diatomic; they are both gases at standard temperature and pressure.
 
  • #78
Just forget it, you're impossible... I will leave it to time to bring this to mainstream science.
 
  • #79
Let's give it another 30 years, shall we?
 
  • #80
I will fully believe in this when someone can produce one or two people who have been brought back from the dead after 2 or 3 days or someone standing in front of me is able to walk on water, levitate and disappear as they are projecting their thoughts into my mind. Are these things you keep coming up with the norm in California because nobody around here in my part of the country levitates into the 5th dimension or really has time to worry about Dr. Turi.
 
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