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GAS PRICES!!!!
- Thread starter fc3srx713b
- Start date
I agree - and the higher energy prices go the better off we are in the long run. I just wish all the extra money weren't going to the oil industry. The cost of housing, a much more basic need than gasoline, has doubled or more in the last decade in much of the country and I don't hear widespread complaining about that.
Too much energy use is frivolous - choosing to live far from work, having a giant house to heat & cool, lots of traveling, and so on. The US agriculture system has replaced family farmers with highly mechanized factory farms that consume an enormous amount of energy in all the fertilizer that subsequently contaminates ground and surface water.
Since relying on people's goodwill to cut energy consumption has failed and regulation isn't easy, there's nothing like cost to settle things down. The trucking industry, by the way, has been heavily subsidized for decades, so I don't have much sympathy. Their burden on the road system is much more than they pay back in taxes.
Too much energy use is frivolous - choosing to live far from work, having a giant house to heat & cool, lots of traveling, and so on. The US agriculture system has replaced family farmers with highly mechanized factory farms that consume an enormous amount of energy in all the fertilizer that subsequently contaminates ground and surface water.
Since relying on people's goodwill to cut energy consumption has failed and regulation isn't easy, there's nothing like cost to settle things down. The trucking industry, by the way, has been heavily subsidized for decades, so I don't have much sympathy. Their burden on the road system is much more than they pay back in taxes.
as i have said before Bruce, higher gas prices are going to make all your goods more expensive too. infact i would think high petrolium prices will be the final straw that will take down the last of the family farmers.
i dont mind high gas prices in the fact that its really kicking ppl in the arse and they are realizing drilling for methane aint such a bad idea. its also putting alot of focus on hybrid cars and E85 excellent. but i still think that if fuel prices go to high to fast its going to send alot of ppl to the poor house, and im talking average folks.
i really wonder if you fully realize what this will mean. hell i understand the high price of shipping to remote locations, few others on here probably do. for me to go out of this town with its population of about 4,000 its atleast a 200 mile round trip to better shopping for the stuff i cant get here. the internet for shopping is great but if fuel prices go up, shipping costs go up and then its still killing you.
i dont mind high gas prices in the fact that its really kicking ppl in the arse and they are realizing drilling for methane aint such a bad idea. its also putting alot of focus on hybrid cars and E85 excellent. but i still think that if fuel prices go to high to fast its going to send alot of ppl to the poor house, and im talking average folks.
i really wonder if you fully realize what this will mean. hell i understand the high price of shipping to remote locations, few others on here probably do. for me to go out of this town with its population of about 4,000 its atleast a 200 mile round trip to better shopping for the stuff i cant get here. the internet for shopping is great but if fuel prices go up, shipping costs go up and then its still killing you.
I saw 2.89/2.99/3.09 today and there didn't seem to be any fewer cars on the road or more people on my bus.
When I lived in Mississippi years ago, Wal-Mart was busy opening modest sized stores just outside each downtown and running each store at a loss long enough to drive the competitors out of business. Wal-Mart later closed a lot of them and built one big store to replace 3-4 of the small town stores built 20-30 years ago. I noticed the dead rural downtowns when I was back in Mississippi several years ago.
Wal-Mart's business model is dependent on customers burning lots of cheap gas to travel much further to megastores to buy stuff shipped from the opposite side of the planet. It'll never be like it was, but maybe there'll be some demand for small, locally-owned stores if customers don't want to spend $10 or more on gas to travel to a Wal-Mart in the next county. I think that would be a good thing.
As for farming, family farmers have been replaced by high input corporate agriculture, which only has a competitive advantage if energy prices are low. Higher energy prices won't return farming to some kind of Norman Rockwell painting, but it'll make some major changes and I think many will be positive. It certainly should be a big boost to grow food outside of Florida and California.
A lot of places once had thriving berry, tomato, and other perishable food farmers who were obliterated by produce trucked in from across the country. If the price to supply California strawberries or Washington apples rises enough, people elsewhere can make a living growing them. I see that as a good thing too. Especially because of the enormous subsidies that to provide water for corporate agriculture.
I'm a socialist now, but I was too far to the right to vote for Reagan in 1980 and have never lost my dislike of the inefficiencies that result from subsidies. I now think they're worthwhile when they are done to further a social good, but putting local producers and retailers out of business isn't good. Neither is encouraging people to have big houses or long commutes. The price of petroleum needs to include all the costs of providing it, especially the monumental military expenditures focused on safeguarding the supply.
If people want to drive past a local store to shop in a distant Wal-Mart, it's their right. But they need to pay the real cost to get there. And if they want to buy something made 10,000 miles away instead of something made 500 miles away, that's their right too. But they need to pay the real cost to transport it. Rural America was healthy when real energy and transportation costs were higher. And Americans were healthier when the real cost of calories rural America produced was higher.
When I lived in Mississippi years ago, Wal-Mart was busy opening modest sized stores just outside each downtown and running each store at a loss long enough to drive the competitors out of business. Wal-Mart later closed a lot of them and built one big store to replace 3-4 of the small town stores built 20-30 years ago. I noticed the dead rural downtowns when I was back in Mississippi several years ago.
Wal-Mart's business model is dependent on customers burning lots of cheap gas to travel much further to megastores to buy stuff shipped from the opposite side of the planet. It'll never be like it was, but maybe there'll be some demand for small, locally-owned stores if customers don't want to spend $10 or more on gas to travel to a Wal-Mart in the next county. I think that would be a good thing.
As for farming, family farmers have been replaced by high input corporate agriculture, which only has a competitive advantage if energy prices are low. Higher energy prices won't return farming to some kind of Norman Rockwell painting, but it'll make some major changes and I think many will be positive. It certainly should be a big boost to grow food outside of Florida and California.
A lot of places once had thriving berry, tomato, and other perishable food farmers who were obliterated by produce trucked in from across the country. If the price to supply California strawberries or Washington apples rises enough, people elsewhere can make a living growing them. I see that as a good thing too. Especially because of the enormous subsidies that to provide water for corporate agriculture.
I'm a socialist now, but I was too far to the right to vote for Reagan in 1980 and have never lost my dislike of the inefficiencies that result from subsidies. I now think they're worthwhile when they are done to further a social good, but putting local producers and retailers out of business isn't good. Neither is encouraging people to have big houses or long commutes. The price of petroleum needs to include all the costs of providing it, especially the monumental military expenditures focused on safeguarding the supply.
If people want to drive past a local store to shop in a distant Wal-Mart, it's their right. But they need to pay the real cost to get there. And if they want to buy something made 10,000 miles away instead of something made 500 miles away, that's their right too. But they need to pay the real cost to transport it. Rural America was healthy when real energy and transportation costs were higher. And Americans were healthier when the real cost of calories rural America produced was higher.
[b said:
While the example isn't quite as dramatic in my case, merely a few miles, I have actually greatly reduced my visits to the larger corporate grocery store in favor of a smaller store nearby, in order to save on gas. Were it not for the fact that I have to buy distilled water and milk, I'd walk it, thereby eliminating the only thing I use my car for.
[b said:
I actually heard of a recent plan to grow large quantities of vegetables in NYC using indoor hydroponic facilities with grow-lights. Considering that such facilities can be stacked many levels deep, they'd effectively reduce the land taken up by farming. Nutrients could be precisely supplied, so no more need to fertilize the soil and cause runoff, and if the growing areas are kept at positive pressure, there's no need to insecticides, as no bugs could move past the pressure differential.
So we might not get family farms back, but rather something far more futuristic.
Mokele
Pacific Northwest ~ here in Oregon gas was 2.69 ,though there are two small perks ~if gas is bought at Safeway I can use my rewards card and get 6 cents off per gallon ` {though i question my food being the "safest way"` my cars tummy stays full with a discount} and also oregons law requires attendants to fill your tank there is no self serve~{great on cold rainy days}
i really dont think you understand the costs of dry land farming Bruce. you need tractors and combines ect and all this takes FUEL, yah cant grow apples, oranges, peaches ect effectivly in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, and the Dakotas. the winters are to freaking cold for standard fruit trees and even most berry crops not to mention our wind is extreamly hard on them. last night we had sustained winds of 45 mph for 8 hours and thats not actually that unusual, hail storms are common. hell we had straight line winds last year that did more damage than any tornado in the area.
as far as traveling out of town to shop. im not even refering to Walmart. im talking picking up LFS and such at a mom and pop greenhouse, my reloading supplies at a family owned sporting goods store, ect ect ect. did you know to replace my house if it burns down it would cost $120,000 to build. after i get it built its going to appraise for about $85,000. it costs more to build something in this area than it is actually worth BECAUSE OF COST OF SHIPPING. i fail to see how much higher fuel prices are going to help matters. its going to force more ppl into an urban enviroment so that they can use public transportation. it will do nothing but hurt the dry land farming industry. high fuel costs will only help the big corporations cause they would be able to get away with less equipment cost per acre than the average family farmer and there for be able to pay more for fuel.
as far as traveling out of town to shop. im not even refering to Walmart. im talking picking up LFS and such at a mom and pop greenhouse, my reloading supplies at a family owned sporting goods store, ect ect ect. did you know to replace my house if it burns down it would cost $120,000 to build. after i get it built its going to appraise for about $85,000. it costs more to build something in this area than it is actually worth BECAUSE OF COST OF SHIPPING. i fail to see how much higher fuel prices are going to help matters. its going to force more ppl into an urban enviroment so that they can use public transportation. it will do nothing but hurt the dry land farming industry. high fuel costs will only help the big corporations cause they would be able to get away with less equipment cost per acre than the average family farmer and there for be able to pay more for fuel.
jimscott
Tropical Fish Enthusiast
Unforunately, oil ends up in just about everything we use - either directly or indirectly, whether it's our gasoline, plastics, fertilizers, whatever. If oil goes up, everything goes up. Eventually, as it did throughout the last 2/3 of the 70's and half the 80's, it will lead to a recession / stagflation. There's gonna be a lot of people tossed out of work, worldwide. Unless the administration is serious about finding and getting alternative energy sources (solar, wind, hydrogen,...) implemented, we're all gonna suffer. Ao far I hear a lot of talk - and see no constructive action.
I didn't say expensive energy will turn rural areas into a wonderland but that "it'll make some major changes and I think many will be positive." Energy prices will rise whether I wish for it or not and I'd prefer they be rising gradually sooner rather than catastrophically later. An economy & society developed around cheap energy is going to be shaken up and a gradual rumble is better than a sudden boom.
Rural areas of the upper plains depopulated while energy was cheap because agribusiness replaced people with energy. That depopulation is why your house is worth less than the replacement cost. Mine might be too and certainly was before the price rose during the last decade. That's what happens when there isn't enough demand for a house. The market is a heartless force.
Demand declined here because so many people moved to auto-dependent outer suburbs and it still costs more to build a house in many of our city neighborhoods than they can be sold for. With higher energy costs, few doubt demand will rise for housing in the city and demand will fall in the outer suburbs. I don't think the effect is so predictable in rural America.
Rural areas of the upper plains depopulated while energy was cheap because agribusiness replaced people with energy. That depopulation is why your house is worth less than the replacement cost. Mine might be too and certainly was before the price rose during the last decade. That's what happens when there isn't enough demand for a house. The market is a heartless force.
Demand declined here because so many people moved to auto-dependent outer suburbs and it still costs more to build a house in many of our city neighborhoods than they can be sold for. With higher energy costs, few doubt demand will rise for housing in the city and demand will fall in the outer suburbs. I don't think the effect is so predictable in rural America.
on the western side of the state my house would be worth more. hell in Colorado Springs i would be worth a hell of a lot more.
i agree with you that energy prices are on the rise and i too would prefer it gradually. but i dont think higher energy prices are going to do anything as far as the agriculture buisness other than putting more small family farms and such out of buisness and raising the cost of the products quite a bit.
i agree with you that energy prices are on the rise and i too would prefer it gradually. but i dont think higher energy prices are going to do anything as far as the agriculture buisness other than putting more small family farms and such out of buisness and raising the cost of the products quite a bit.
jimscott
Tropical Fish Enthusiast
Yeah as long as it dosnt have a turbo rotarys love really low octaine gas. My old black 7 always gets the lowest octaine gas but the track car is turbo so it needs 93 or higher. Also from the factory it did about 20mpg but after I added the turbo and got it up around 350hp it dropped down to around 9. If I drive it hard enough it'll do 6mpg. Yeah, it's sad.[b said:
