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Thread: The immigration issue -- my $0.02

  1. #89
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    When illegals are in the country it is almost impossible to regulate them and keep track of them. And i am certain that our law enforcement people have better things to do with their time than returning undocumented immigrants. They could be helping solve crimes. I dont know about you but i would feel much more conftorble with the latter. They are of some security priority, but not a major issue. The bigger isuue is that we have no way of keeping tabs on them so we can track them if they are a praoblem. And seeing as many ave no plan of returning to mexico, what do we do? Force them to leave? I have a feeling that would force them to become more secretive and even possibly undergoud if they felt they were going to be causht. I see the steps of legalization of illegal sthat are hee as a more practacle solltion so they can be accountable and trackable just like every other citizen
    that makes no logic

  2. #90
    Cardiac Nurse JB_OrchidGuy's Avatar
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    OK Now that I have cought up on this thread since I posted I am ready to reply.

    First off. fc3srx713b, No that post was not dirrected at you, you were just the last one to post before I posted. I did mean what I said though, and I will leave it at that. It was a general statement though and not dirrected at anyone.

    Now, This may be out of order from what I read, but I read it than decided to reply.

    First off someone said that the logistics of verifying documentation of every worker would be impossible?? I say BS to that. I know EVERYONE here has heard of the Internet. We are using it here now. I know EVERYONE has heard of computers. Again we are all using them here. I KNOW that some people know that there are computers that can read handwriting. Its out there. With the internet the government can require everyone to scan and send coppies of appriate paperwork to a central mainframe or series of them that will scann for the name and SSN and do verifications on them without a human being involved except to fix the system if its down. Then print a list of red flags that need to be checked on. Once thats done then those with the red flags can be setup for a random audit like the IRS does with taxxes. When it comes to money we can crack down, but why not with immagrants? This would not only increase job need to set this up, and it will take time, but it will discorage businesses who may be hiring illegals.

    Second someone said that a wall would be not practical? Why not? True most of the area is uninhabited desert, but here again computers or a series of computers connected to a main frame with recognition technology could be implimented. Once the wall is complete the computer will monitor the ENTIRE stretch of the wall. Motion detectors and cameras. If something is big enough to setoff the motion alarm then the camera activates and finds the movement, and if its humin it alerts the approriate people, if its a large animal it doesn't. Plus you embly sismic(sp) detectors to detect any tunnels being built under the wall. They are used all the time so could be used here too. Then Any time the ground shakes under it from a tunnel bing built someone gets alearted. Then those same detectors would also detect an exposion on the wall alerting the people. Now those folks monitoring the wall would need fast vehicles like appachi(sp) choppers other choppers and desert vehicles. To respond. It can be done.

    3rd. My father got stationed to Germany when I was a teen, and he took a German language coarse so he could function over there. He didn't expect them to learn english, even though many knew it already. When I went over to visit I learned a few phrases, but it still wasn't enough to get by on. Heck I was a teen and didn't know any better. The thing I respect about Germans is that if they see you trying to speak German and stumble to bad they will speak to you in english, but if you go with the attitude of not even trying to speak German then they will not speak english no matter what you say to them. If your going to a country LEARN THE ACCEPTED LANGUAGE. Do not try to get them to convert them to yours. That is obserd! Now that doesn't mean learning a second language is not a good thing, but if your like me I couldn't grasp it. Maybe now that I am older I could, but as a teen I didn't do well with French. Can't remember but a few phrases, and forget about speaking to me in French I would be lost. Now if I went to france I wouls try to learn the language again now that I am older.

    4th Someone said we should make it a rule to hire only english speaking people. Well, in an ideal world that might be great, but we live in a society that love to hollar "DESCRIMINATION" and anyone who deosn't speak english will try to sue. Some one will get legal status and then try to get a job and sue and be set for life. It should be made a requirement for citizenship. I say let them fill out the paperwork, if they meat the requirments, whatever those may be, give them probationary citizenship. With this probationary citizenship they have to agree to take a STATE or FED funded english class. I wouldn't mind using my tax dollars for that. That means FREE to the immagrant! A free english class that they are required to make a certain average on before the probabionary citizenship is a full citizenship. Now does this mean if they fail the first time its right back to WHEREEVER they come from? No I say give them 3 times to take the course, because like I said I am not good with languages, but I did ok enough to make c's and one d in highschool. So giving them 3 chances to go through the course would be ok with me.

    5th Companies MUST BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE for hireing illegals. No ifs and or buts about it. If they cannot work here they will be less likely to come here. As I said before It is not about legal imagrants! It is about ILLEGAL imagrants! Many illegals, not all, are freeloading on our system and that burns me up. No matter where your from if your here illegal you need to go. We have enough to worry about with our citizen free loaders. I am all for helping someone try to get on their feet. By all means let me give you a hand if I can, but I will not support you if you have two perfectly good feet to stand on. So you may say I knwo many that are not freeloaders and working, yada yada yada. What about when they get sick? Where do they go? The ER! When they get there do they have insurance? More than likely not. Do they pay their bill when they are better? More than likely not, so then those people are FREE LOADING on my medical system! They are causing many of my peers across the nation to worry about their hospital closing due to lack of funds. Again I say many citizen freeloaders do this already so why should ne allow the addition? We can go to socialized medicine if everyone wants to, but I don't think you will like the results. I know in many places this is used you have to wait 6 months for a MRI or CT scann. By then it could be to late for your melignent brain tumor thats growing in your head. Many times by the time you see symptomes it needs to be a hurry to get it out before it spread to much. Then with socialized medicine if someone doesn;t stand to benefit from the surgery for one reason or the other you can be denied, since it has to be approved by a review board. So less femeral to polateal bypasses to save someones leg, and go straight to amputation. Since today we can do two or three before they revert to amputation. Sometimes not that many, but I have done a third revision to aleast attempt salvage. What about appendicitice(sp). Many Dr use CT to diagnose the problem. If CT takes 6 months then that means back to the days of go in an see and take it out if its bad or not. Now for the more devistating part of socialized medicine. When its first implimented there will be a decline in Dr from those that are close to retirement just getting out, because they will no longer be making any where near the money they are making. Those that just got in may stay and those that have made money, but are years from retirement may stick it out. Your going to have a decline in people going to medical school because there isn't the money like there was in the business. there is already a decline in reimbursements from medicare and this in turn leads to the decline of insurance reimbursements. Why do you think that some floors only have one nurse to 8 patients sometimes? It happens. Its not suposed to, but it does. Thats dangerous, but its because the hospitals cannot afford to pay the nurses what they are worth and cant get people. I duno if many of you realize it, but there is a nursing shortage, and its about to get REALY bad. The average age of a nurse is 45 to 50 I think? I can't remember the exact stats at the moment, but once those retire then there will be a big crunch. Since there are nto as many people going into nursing. this is on an upswing as enrolement increases slightly, but its not going to be enough when the people start retireing. Sorry for the long rant its time to get back on the subject.

    Someone said something about Arizona belonging to mexico and this is a "taste of our own medicine." Well wasn't those teritories given to us as part of a peace settlement during the spanish american war? Those are spoils of war, and a different issue. I cannot remember how that war got started or if that is the correct war or not, but regardless that was one of the settlement agreements and it should be left at that.

    Bruce I don't know what fox has to do with anything they are jsut reporting the news. From what I see on fox its all the protester saying we are against imigration, and I find myself talking to the TV asking who said anything about the legislation being about imigration. Its about ILLEGAL imigration. Those people here ILLEGALY. Not those who have papers to be here those folks are fine! Come one come all just go through the proper door before you enter.

    The biggest issue is they are a burden on our tax dollar. Period. They do not contribute to those funds. Period! They take advantage of our laws against us. Why isn't a cop allowed to ask if they are a citizen or not? Why isn;t he allowed to ask him to show proof? He may not have it on him, but it can be produced. Now since they re a burdon and are not contibuting they why is it implied we owe them something? Also we shouldn't be educating thier children, but in turn sending them back as well. Truincy needs to be monitored because illegals children will stop attending school and that would be a dead giveaway. No matter the nationality of the ILLEGAL the same rules should apply! Illegal is Illegal is Illegal. I for one think our economy would be fine without them her to do the work of a slave, since thats basicly the way its being conducted at the moment. Sub wages, sub living, and the threat of being reported keeps them working for peanuts, and that is not right as well. So to stop that kind of behaviour why would anyone be against them registering and becomeing citizens. Then they could send MORE money back home, and assist others to join them in a beter life LEGALY! And once they are legal here they they can enjoy the same rights we enjoy, and they would be contibuting to the system the freeloaders exploit. It just makes more sence to me to become legal because that way you could have a better wage and more money to send home. If thats what they accualy do with the money.

    Now I know there is no fool proof system to stop things coming or going, and forget about my vice that happens to come over by the tons from Mexico. Luckly alot if grown in Ky too. LMAO Plus the largest US grower is the US government anyways, but thats another story. I know it may look like its dirrected at mexico, but its not. It just happens to be the largest entry point. Not only for mexicans to come over, but for anyone not a citizen that wants to get here illegaly can come through mexico. The plans I outlined will in fact slow it down, but will it stop it totaly? No nothing will, but that can't be a reason not to attept it. I know what I proposed will be expencive, and will someone who can make that decition, do something like that? More than likely not. No system is 100% fool proof yet, and probably never will be. The human mind is just to enginuative(sp), and will find a way to overcome any obstical. Necessity is the mother of all invention.
    JB
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  3. #91

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    Face it. We are all immigrants or the offspring thereof. Want in the US? Register at the border. Get all the documentation you need including driving priveleges, schooling, medical, ALL that. Once registered, Welcome to the US, now go to work! Wave your flag in my face, GO HOME! Want to stay? Watch our borders for us, and if you see something suspicious, report it. If it turns out you saved our country from a sneak attack by "The Enemy", automatic Citizenship, and a $100,000. dollar reward, take your place with the rest of us. Think our borders would be secure then by the crowds wanting in the gate? I do. Best security there is is to reward those who want in, and help them settle in, and the word WILL go out, our borders will be secure, and we do not have to become intolerant nitwits who belie the fact that we are ALL immigrants!
    45 yrs. growin\'
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  4. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Second someone said that a wall would be not practical? Why not? True most of the area is uninhabited desert, but here again computers or a series of computers connected to a main frame with recognition technology could be implimented.
    The first law of engineering: technological feasability is not the same as economic feasability. While such a wall is technologically possible, convincing the taxpayers to foot the bill for it is another matter entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]What about when they get sick? Where do they go? The ER! When they get there do they have insurance? More than likely not. Do they pay their bill when they are better? More than likely not, so then those people are FREE LOADING on my medical system!
    You mean like the over 20% of US citizens who also lack health insurance and cannot pay their bills when they get sick?

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]We can go to socialized medicine if everyone wants to, but I don't think you will like the results. I know in many places this is used you have to wait 6 months for a MRI or CT scann. By then it could be to late for your melignent brain tumor thats growing in your head. Many times by the time you see symptomes it needs to be a hurry to get it out before it spread to much. Then with socialized medicine if someone doesn;t stand to benefit from the surgery for one reason or the other you can be denied, since it has to be approved by a review board.
    You know, when my fiancee was here, she got sick several times. Having experienced both the UK and US health care systems, she was *appalled* at ours. Waiting for 7 hours in the emergency room just to be seen to, being billed nearly $2000 for having a few bags of saline put in via IV, none of that happens there.

    Frankly, a lot of objections you mention (long times to treatment, the review board) are just figments of the imagination of those who want to keep the US as the only industrialized country where people die from being poor.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]When its first implimented there will be a decline in Dr from those that are close to retirement just getting out, because they will no longer be making any where near the money they are making. Those that just got in may stay and those that have made money, but are years from retirement may stick it out. Your going to have a decline in people going to medical school because there isn't the money like there was in the business.
    If the money is that much of a deciding factor, I don't want them as my doctor. I'd rather have someone who actually cares.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I don't know what fox has to do with anything they are jsut reporting the news.
    Fox has a well-known tendency to report the news in a heavily biased manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ] Also we shouldn't be educating thier children, but in turn sending them back as well.
    1) You can't deport them if they were born here, regardless of the parent's status.

    2) What possible gain is there from denying kids what little the US schools have to offer? And before you say they don't pay for it, they do. In the unlikely event they have a house, they pay property taxes. In the more likely situation of them renting, the landlord pays the property taxes, whether his tenants are legal or not. And those taxes are where schools get money.

    Mokele
    \"With malleus aforethought, mammals got an earful of their ancestor's jaw.\"
    --J. Burns, on the evolution of auditory ossicles.

  5. #93
    herenorthere's Avatar
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    When I said to stay out of their countries, that was just to follow the form of a previous post. The problem is that the US doesn't play fair. We don't allow other countries to protect their agricultural sector, while we protect our own. Or we pull a stunt like in 2002 when Bush put an emergency tariff on steel imports to protect US steel workers. It was really to protect Republican prospects in midterm elections of Rust Belt states and no third world country could have gotten away with it.

    When the WTO was created in the 90s, highly developed nations agreed to give up their own protectionist policies (mostly agriculture) in return for less developed countries opening up their financial and social sectors. We make sure they do what they agreed, but refuse to do what we agreed. It isn't just the US; Japan and Western Europe have retained protectionist agriculture policies too. I give them some slack, however, because their policies are intended to maintain small scale "family" farming while we long ago gave up farming to corporate agribusiness. But the effect is the same on poor farmers in other parts of the world: first world subsidies destroy livelihoods in the third world. It doesn't matter whether it's rice from a picturesque paddy in the shadow of Mt. Fuji or cotton from a chemical drenched, eroding piece of Mississippi, developed nations don't play by the rules.

    So we're no less illegal than the people who slip across the border. Actually, we're probably even more illegal because we're the ones who wrote the global trade rules we only selectively follow. Immigrants didn't write our immigration laws before breaking them. And their illegal actions don't force us to act illegally. While our actions give them little other choice.
    Bruce in CT

    Madness is something rare in individuals — but in groups, parties, peoples, ages it is the rule. Friedrich Nietzsche

  6. #94

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    Regardless of the economic BS going on, though, two wrongs do not make a right. There are better ways of dealing with things.
    \"With malleus aforethought, mammals got an earful of their ancestor's jaw.\"
    --J. Burns, on the evolution of auditory ossicles.

  7. #95
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ] Once the wall is complete the computer will monitor the ENTIRE stretch of the wall. Motion detectors and cameras. If something is big enough to setoff the motion alarm then the camera activates and finds the movement, and if its humin it alerts the approriate people, if its a large animal it doesn't.
    That would be almost prohibitively expensive to do such. And such distances would almost need guard posts every few dozens of miles, and even then, even if we did see this, it would be too late because there is a good chance theyd be gone! and NOT to mention the wall impeding the large mammal migration routs that run through the area. I think it is fanciful and unrealistic economially to build such a overkill wall. Anyway I still vote for dynamite. Blow it up and get thru before they come. Easy.


    Also, be polite. anyone saying anyone else’s ideas or opinions are BS is not up to acceptable politeness standards.


    Walls are not the answer. Walls are not inpenetrable. Walls are not invincible. They will find a way
    that makes no logic

  8. #96
    Cardiac Nurse JB_OrchidGuy's Avatar
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    Well, it seems that everyone hasn;t read my post in its entirety I know its long, but give me the credit to have read it in its entirety. I do believe I said no system was fool proof. Also I said I don't think it would every happen. I just said it COULD happen. Just because the price tag is so high doesn't mean its not possible. Now dynomite COULD blow a hole in it, but thats why you have the fast attack helicopters and other fast aircraft to get to trouble spots in time. If you think someone on foot will be gone when you have an attack helicopter or other aircraft scrambling to intercept. PLUS you forget about infra red cameras mounted on these aircraft. Now do I ever think it will happen or be afforded? NO. I just made a comment that it COULD be done. Nothing is impossible, and the pesemists who see the glass half empty are the ones who think it can't be done. I am an optomist I see the glass half full, and anything IS possible. Feesable? Probably not.

    I agree everyone here is a decendent of immigrants. I have not denied that nor have I said no immigration. I jsut said do it legaly and I will welcome them.

    Now Bruce I haven't done any research on those treaty issues you bring up, BUT I will venture to say something out it. I would suspect that we still have those things in place you mention and subsidize farming because those countries we compete with do not have a minimum wage for their workers and this that and the other that will allow them to undercut us no matter how hard we try. There is a reason for subsidies. Just like with the steel. Granted they may be making REALLY god money, but now your at a standard of living that you expect and other countries who pay their workers a few dollars a day and can sell steel so much cheeper than us HURTS our economy and puts alot of OUR workers out of business. Soo those other countries are nto playing by the rules o begin with with the sweat shops, child labor, and no minimum wage I know of for alot of those places. So the folks that complain about Wal-mart putting small busineses out of business for selling at a loss on some items to under cut the small businesses, will be complaining aobut us not being able to compete with the places that do not have the minumum wages or child labor laws. Not an equal playing field from what I know about it. Correct me if I am wrong.

    Now the socialized medicine issue. I'm sorry your fiancee had a bad experience here, but you found out what I was talking about the hard way. I know there are a high number of people without insurance, and I spent all last year loosing weight to keep mine at 90/10. Any who. I know we have a problem with our system, but socilaized medicine is not the answer to fix it. I duno about the myths you claim are there, but I have been told by doctors that the bad off patients are put on the back burner. Maybe your fiancee hasn;t had a very life threatening illness yet and hasn't experienced it yet. No matter what Dr do worry about money, and some do car and some don't care about patients. See you have to realize that these doctors with offices have to pay those people from the money they make. You don't realy think those people work for free do you? They are paid by the Dr when he gets paid by insurance or medicare or the patient, so they do have to worry about money. Thats just like asking a business man not to worry about money and hire all the people he wants in his company. That company will go belly up really fast. Dr are no diferent. THEY HAVE TO EAT TOO, and pay for their staff. They are only making about 100,000 to 120,000 a year now, and come on thats more than alot of people make true, BUT not many people go through 12 to 13 years or more EXTRA SCHOOL either. Doctors have to go through 4 years college, 4 years Med school, then 4 to 5 years residency. Then if they do a fellowship for another specialty then thats another couple years! Would you spend your entire life till your 30-35 just to make 50,000-70,000? I don't think so. Many people are quick to blame the Dr for being money humgery, but some on now give me a break! you have to be pretty dedicated to go through that much school after highschool. With all the cuts there isn't many that are sticking it out that don't have some care for the patients. Granted there are some that hate their job, but have past thier point of no return with the school they have taken and they feel they are too old to go back. Now I am not sure how long it takes to be a DR in the other countries, but I know its not 12 years. Many of those good DR come here to study and go home to practice because WE ARE THE BEST IN MEDICINE! We produce the best Dr in the world. Why do you think many are coming here to be tought. Now the long 7 hour wait your fianceee had to wait was because of all those people using the ER as a primary care facility. Thats not its intention. The ER is for immegencey NOT a cold, flue, cough or whatever minor ailment. The ER is for trauma, bad cuts and other life threatening conditions. Have you noticed that some people get back faster than you and your fiancee? Thats because they are more serious conditions like heart attacks and other things. Not saying she didn't deserve fast attention. I'm not saying that. I am just saying that the more serious get seen first and then you have to take into account the ones that are alreayd back that are less serious than your fianceee that they are not going to ask to go back to the waiting room. So you can't blame the hospital. They are working with what they are given to work with, and with what is coming in. Ther is also a reason the bill was 2000. Thats because emergenry care costs more than routine care for one. Also remember all those that do not pay? Its just like in stores that have higher theft rates. The prices up in the entire company to compinsate for the theft. The hosptal is just trying to stay operating and pay its people. Where would you be if that place closed for lack of funds? Everyone needs to look at the big picture. Malpractice insurance is going sky HIGH. In fact in PA GYM inurance is almost non affordable. We have a DR here a neurosurgion who moved from Ky because our malpractice insurance was cheaper and he could afford to pay it. You have to remember the DR pay that our of pocket, plus they must pay their staff and overhead for the office. No one seems to think about this. They jsut see the bill. The reason the malpractice is up is because you have jureys giving 10M dollar settlements and other outragous settlements for law suites. The DR doesn't pay that the malpractice insurance does then it makes the premiums go up for EVERYONE.

    So we have rising cost of insurace, lower rate of reimbursement from Medicare, Then lower reimbusement from Insurace comapnies because the modle their reimbursment off of medicare, then you have the indigent care patients who do not pay. The last person to foot the bill is the self pays that do end up paying. So look at the big picture its a little bit more complicated than you think. If you want the best DR you have to pay for them, and our system needs to be reformed. Why do you think there are proposals like torte reform?

    Now to the Fox news issue. Personaly I don't see it as biased. They report I decide. I do watch Cnn and others and am appoled at how those idiots canot report without saying umm ahh and other things , and they are severly biased towards the left it isn't funny. It burns me up and I rarely watch anything else other than fox. I am so glad they got rid of Jeraldo(sp) because he couldn't speak to save his life! They sent him to a local new station. He was bad as some others on cnn. I don't see how Fox is biased, but I guess the left thinks Fox is biased and the right thinks the other news outlets are biased.

    I duno how to fix things, but these are some of my feelings.
    JB
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