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Thread: The immigration issue -- my $0.02

  1. #97
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    Ah my apologies. I hope I did not sound condecending.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]fast attack helicopters and other fast aircraft to get to trouble spots in time
    And who's plan are you drawing this off of? Attack helicopters? Why attack? well we need the machine guns and missles or what? And why would every single person or group need such a... dramatic response? Oh well. Just seems a bit over kill to me.

    On bias... Its a funny thing. I see right-wing watchdog groups attacking what they see as bias. Really its left bias they they are watching for as they never accuse anyone of right bias. Right, so the lefties see CNN and such as unbiased and FOX as biased, while the righties see it the other way around. uh-huh. You are absolutely right on that part. Because many dont see bias where their own views are roughly similar. Thats why we all disagree upon this, it is a matter OPINION on who's the biased one around, its not fact.

    Really the issue on educating immigrant's kids is simple to me. Everyone, especially children, have the right to an education. And illegals who have children born in the US, ( i dont know if anyone was suggesting this but it bears saying anyway)their children CANNOT, repeat, cannot be turned away from school, it is a direct violation of the civil rights act against discrimination. Discrimination against the children of illegal immigrants. And that would be wrong.
    that makes no logic

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    Single payer medicine is coming...we have almost reached the tipping point. The tipping point is when big businesses no longer want to pay for their employees insurance. Then we will have "socialised medicine", and not a moment too soon, IMO.

    I have friends who live in Canada and Europe, and they are most happy with the socialised medicine. Please don't tell me about how it would lead to rationed healthcare...it's already happening here, and has been for quite some time. Ever been poor and without health insurance? If so, you're already experiencing rationed healthcare! Been there, done that.

    Illegal immigrants depress the wages of poor citizens. Illegal immigrants and their children over-burden our schools and healthcare systems.

    The only thing we need to do to solve the illegal immigrant problem is to start enforcing the employment laws vis a vis illegal immigrants. If they can't get jobs....they won't come here anymore. No reason to, they aren't coming here because they love the USA..they're coming here for work. Time to make their work non-existant.
    \"People place their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution; they don't put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible,\" Jamie Raskin, to Senator Nancy Jacobs.

  3. #99
    VFT and Drosera lover vft guy in SJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Finch @ May 07 2006,9:15)]Really the issue on educating immigrant's kids is simple to me. Everyone, especially children, have the right to an education. And illegals who have children born in the US, ( i dont know if anyone was suggesting this but it bears saying anyway)their children CANNOT, repeat, cannot be turned away from school, it is a direct violation of the civil rights act against discrimination. Discrimination against the children of illegal immigrants. And that would be wrong.
    How is it disscrimination? They should not be here in the first place. Why is it my responsability to foot the bill to educate them? They dont have ANY rights here whatsoever.. they are ILLEGAL!!!!!

    Children of legal immigrants, fine... children of ILLEGAL immigrants have NO RIGHTS and deserve NO BENEFITS. If they want their kids taken care of, then let them enter through proper channels. I see nothing wrong with that at all.
    There are only 2 infinite things... the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not too sure about the universe.

  4. #100
    Cardiac Nurse JB_OrchidGuy's Avatar
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    I agree with you 100% VFT. If they are legal then they will be part of the system and helping support it. Thats why I am for the fair tax that is a federal sales tax. Even the illegals would be paying taxes and all the people coming over for tourism would be paying taxes. This would help ease the burden of those that are illegal. I feel the same way about criminals as I do about illegals. THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS UNDER OUR CONSTITUTION. Illegals never had it, and criminals loose it as soon as they are convicted, but leave it to the bleeding hearts to give the d@mn criminals more rights than the non criminals.

    Finch. The reason I say attack helicopters is because they are fast. They don't need to be loaded down with missles and such. I would say a machine gun turret, and maybe something else just for protection, but I said those for the speed. They are faster than most other helicopters. I'm not up on aviation so if there are faster cavilian helicopters, then those would be fine too.

    Well April, All I will be able to say when we do turn to socilaized medichine is good by bank account and hello substandard medicine. We will not have the level of healthcare we have now. We will not have the level of reseach going on for new medicines. We will not have the ammount of medical breakthroughs we have today. they will not go away, but there will be less going on. Ever wonder why meds cost more here? I;m not saying I agree with it by no means. Hell meds are too expencive, but these companies cannot sell these drugs for those prices in canada or europe, and once we go that same route it will be the same here and then all most all the funding will go bye bye. It will rely on private funding, and that will nto be as much as the other funds bring in. I am not saying its right, but thats how its working out now. Not to mention over in the UK and Canada, from what I hear, the tax rate is like 52%. Correct me if I am wrong Canadians, but thats what I remember reading or hearing or something, and thats to pay for the socialized medicine and other public health things. Thats also why cigarrets are 7-8 dollars a pack or more.

    Personaly I am not trying to give the goverment any more control over my action than they already have. I don't like the fact of having Big Brother thinking he always knows what is best for me. Sometimes they don't even know what is good for theirselves. What makes them think they know whats good for me.
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  5. #101
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    the only way to finanace socialized medicine is with higher taxes. im sorry it would be cheaper for me to pay for health insurance. i now have insurance(as of April 1) after being without it for 6 years. i am more interested in paying for insurance out of pocket than for socialized medicine. and i paid for a lot of expensive ER visuts and doctor bills in their entierty while i didnt have insurance.

    if our taxes hit 50% i cant afford to make house payments, i cant afford gas to get to work, hell i couldnt spend the extra money to grow CP's. socialized medicine is not the answer. what needs to happen if for juries to quite awarding millions upon millions of dollars for things that were a simple mistake or just plain idiotic stuff. money doesnt make things right. i figure if its an actul incident worth a family winning the lottery, the doc's malpractice insurance gives them a few hundred thousand, pays their medical bills and than the judge yanks the docs licence no more problems. ppl also need to realize accidents happen and are not an instant winning lottery ticket
    cervid serial killer
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  6. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I duno about the myths you claim are there, but I have been told by doctors that the bad off patients are put on the back burner. Maybe your fiancee hasn;t had a very life threatening illness yet and hasn't experienced it yet
    Members of her family *have* had such illnesses, and the UK's Health Service treated them very well. I suspect you've been mis-informed by those who are biased against the system.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]See you have to realize that these doctors with offices have to pay those people from the money they make. You don't realy think those people work for free do you? They are paid by the Dr when he gets paid by insurance or medicare or the patient, so they do have to worry about money. Thats just like asking a business man not to worry about money and hire all the people he wants in his company. That company will go belly up really fast. Dr are no diferent. THEY HAVE TO EAT TOO, and pay for their staff.
    So do other people, and for many people, they actually have to choose between 'eating' and 'seeing a doctor' because of the outrageous prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Would you spend your entire life till your 30-35 just to make 50,000-70,000? I don't think so.
    Bzzt, wrong. I *am* doing precisely that. 4 years of college, 2 years of MS, 5 years of Phd then 4-6 years of post-doctoral work before I even have a *chance* of getting a position that pays 50,000 per year. I know full professors who make barely more than 70k.

    Years of school do not automatically entitle you to a large paycheck. Especially when that paycheck has to come out of the pocket of people who have no choice but to pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Many of those good DR come here to study and go home to practice because WE ARE THE BEST IN MEDICINE! We produce the best Dr in the world. Why do you think many are coming here to be tought.
    I contend that our status as the best in medicine has much more to do with the US's postion as a scientific powerhouse than with the economic aspects of our medical system.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ] Now the long 7 hour wait your fianceee had to wait was because of all those people using the ER as a primary care facility.
    Which wouldn't happen if we actually provided people with primary care.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]How is it disscrimination? They should not be here in the first place. Why is it my responsability to foot the bill to educate them?
    Did you even read my prior post? You aren't footing the bill; they are. They're paying for it - it's included in every rent payment. Schools are funded with property taxes. If you own a home, you pay property tax. If you rent a home, the landlord pays the tax and passes the expense on to you, the renter. So an illegal immigrant renting an apt is contributing to the local schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]We will not have the level of reseach going on for new medicines. We will not have the ammount of medical breakthroughs we have today. they will not go away, but there will be less going on.
    I think that's baseless alarmism. Where do these breakthroughs come from? From doctors offices? No. They come from medical universities and from companies. The former don't work from profit at all, beyond tuition; once you publish, it's public domain. The latter will just be getting the money from the government rather than the hospitals, so no big difference.

    Besides, American medical inovation is dead; it died when certain parties forced through neandethal laws just eliminate the most useful area of medical research in the past century. If I need a heart transplant in 20 years, I'll just go to Europe, becuase at least there they'll be able to grow me a new heart in a jar using my own cells and no waiting lists, while in the US I'd be forced to rely on a system that thinks simple tissue culture procedures are 'evil'.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Ever wonder why meds cost more here? I;m not saying I agree with it by no means. Hell meds are too expencive, but these companies cannot sell these drugs for those prices in canada or europe, and once we go that same route it will be the same here and then all most all the funding will go bye bye.
    Meds cost more here because they can get away with it, and because they spend assloads on advertising drugs so that the *private* healthcare system will prescribe them. The funds that go towards research are a small portion of the drug prices being charged.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ] Not to mention over in the UK and Canada, from what I hear, the tax rate is like 52%. Correct me if I am wrong Canadians, but thats what I remember reading or hearing or something, and thats to pay for the socialized medicine and other public health things. Thats also why cigarrets are 7-8 dollars a pack or more.
    Incorrect; like the US, the UK has a graded tax system (you pay more if you're rich), but it's nowhere near 50% for most people. That's just another scrap of propaganda spread by those who thing anything less than total lazie-faire capitalism is a sin (in spite of the fact that between VA benefits, medicare, and medicaid, we're already nearly halfway towards a socialized system).

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Personaly I am not trying to give the goverment any more control over my action than they already have. I don't like the fact of having Big Brother thinking he always knows what is best for me. Sometimes they don't even know what is good for theirselves. What makes them think they know whats good for me.
    I could say precisely the same thing about HMOs and other medical insurance systems. At least the government is only the victim of accidental incompetence, rather than purposeful greed.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]the only way to finanace socialized medicine is with higher taxes. im sorry it would be cheaper for me to pay for health insurance.
    Are you sure about that? Our taxes already pay for many socialized medical programs, and the increase necessary for a total system is probably minor compared to what we waste invading countries to steal their oil.

    Mokele
    \"With malleus aforethought, mammals got an earful of their ancestor's jaw.\"
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  7. #103

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    "Well April, All I will be able to say when we do turn to socilaized medichine is good by bank account and hello substandard medicine. We will not have the level of healthcare we have now. "

    How do you figure that?

    "We will not have the level of reseach going on for new medicines. "

    Drug companies do most of the drug research in this country, with Universities picking up most of the rest, paid for by grants from proffesional groups, foundations and the NIH. Europe and Canada set prices for the drugs. So, this means that americans pay for the research done by the drug companies, and everybody else gets cheap medicine.

    "We will not have the ammount of medical breakthroughs we have today"

    Medical breakthroughs are generally driven by researchers at Colleges and Universities, and they are very government funded.

    "Ever wonder why meds cost more here? "

    No, not at all. It's Laissez Faire capitalism.

    And it didn't help that the current administration set up the new drug benefit program in a way that makes it illegal for states to bargain with the drug companies to get lower prices on drugs, like they do in Canada and Europe. Gee, it almost smells like people in high places are in cahoots with the drug companies.

    "Not to mention over in the UK and Canada, from what I hear, the tax rate is like 52%."

    As someone pointed out, this is not correct.

    "Thats also why cigarrets are 7-8 dollars a pack or more."

    Cigaretttes are $7-$8 a pack in NYC, approaching that in Chicago, and the US doesn't have single payer.

    Malpractice suits don't have anything to do with the high cost of medicine or medical insurance...the insurance industry was very heavily invested in the stock market in the 90's, and they lost their behinds. Doctors and patients have been paying for their losses ever since.

    If you're a doctor, and you make a mistake that messes someone up for the rest of their lives, or you accidentally kill someone...darn right you should pay. And pay.

    Back to our friends, the illegal immigrants. Enforce the employment laws. That's all the country would have to do, if big business and the Chamber of Commerce would let us. No papers, no work. No need to spend billions building big ugly walls.
    \"People place their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution; they don't put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible,\" Jamie Raskin, to Senator Nancy Jacobs.

  8. #104
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]How is it disscrimination? They should not be here in the first place. Why is it my responsability to foot the bill to educate them?
    The children of illegal immigrants who are –born-- in the United States are full citizens regardless of the status of their parents.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ] THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS UNDER OUR CONSTITUTION
    laws protecting civil rights of citezens appear in the Constitution, yes they do, you betcha. Dont doubt it for a second. Children of illigals born here un the us are no exception. If you doubt that im shure any court would tell you that.

    Brown v. Board of Education –

    Chief Justice Earl Warren wrote:
    "Today, education is perhaps the most important function of state and local governments. Compulsory school attendance laws and the great expenditures for education both demonstrate our recognition of the importance of education to our democratic society. It is required in the performance of our most basic public responsibilities, even service in the armed forces. It is the very foundation of good citizenship. Today it is a principal instrument in awakening the child to cultural values, in preparing him for later professional training, and in helping him to adjust normally to his environment. In these days, it is doubtful that any child may reasonably be expected to succeed in life if he is denied the opportunity of an education. Such an opportunity, where the state has undertaken to provide it, is a right which must be made available to all on equal terms." [12]
    -----------
    I rest my case
    that makes no logic

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