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The immigration issue -- my $0.02

  • #121
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]as far as Big Brother, has the Patriot Act really not hit home with you?

Well, I'd argue the NSA wiretapping is a more suitable analogy, but yes. Big Brother, if you recall, was survielance and the use of rampant patriotism to do away with rights. It has little to do with the actual size of government or the level of management; IIRC, you could do just about anything you wanted, but they'd be watching.

Big government, in my eyes, is more simply a result of the sheer size and complexity of society. If we'd stop breeding like nymphomaniac rabbits and bring the human population down to something reasonable, I suspect we'd naturally see a return to smaller government, simply because the large, complex infrastructure is no longer needed.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]guess im one who is more interested in supporting ones self than relying on Big Brother

But some things are better when in government hands. I'm sure you're not a fan of having to lay down your own road whenever you want to go somewhere, after all.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]the Post docs at the University I work at make upwards of $40K a year. Profs w/o tenure at least $90K, and the heavy hitters w/tenure, upwards of $250k. There's money to be made in edumacation.

But in what field, and I suspect it's an RO1 (research-oriented, top tier, for everyone) university. I'd *love* to work at an RO1, but organismal biologists aren't exactly the most application-oriented lot.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I can see where thats stressfull, but I duno still seems like a blast to me.

Oh, it's a total blast, but one that you've gotta be super-careful with. Fieldwork can be great fun, but a nice case of sleeping sickness or malaria, or a venomous snake bite, can make things turn bad fast, especially if there's no nearby hospital.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]April I agree we shouldn't be educationg someone children who shouldn't behere in the first place.

Even if they're paying for that education?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I still think feelings should me used to make decisions. What about all those time you knew it in your gut to do one thing, but did the other because of "data" only to be wrong? Well, I know its atleast happened to me a few times.

The number of times that happens, compared to the number of times the data leads to the right decision and feelings lead us astray, is insignificant. Inuition is one thing, that's merely sub-conscious data processing, but if you make a decision just based on what feels right, you've got a greater likelyhood of being wrong. This basically explains the distaster that is modern politics: you do what'll make the voter's feel good and re-elect you, no matter how useless or damaging.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Good Gravy, Mokele! What on Earth do you do? Crush an engine block in their jaws? Kill you with a scratch?!!

Herpetology, the study of reptiles and amphibians (I'm a Master's student). Crocodilians are not the most fun animals to work with, nor are venomous snakes. Fortunately, I've only had limited dealings with either, but I have a suspicion I'm gonna have to use large vipers for a series of experiments I want to do in the future.

Mokele
 
  • #122
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]After all, when was the last time a patient that could crush an engine block in their jaws was *hunting* you? Or you had a deal with a patient from whom the merest scratch could kill you within moments?

where do i sign up? thats not much worse than the step kids and my mutt. ever had a dog that likes to chew on knee caps? this freaking furry pin ball does. sounds like a vacation Mokele
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  • #123
This topic blew up. The only off-the-top-of-my-head solution i can think of is legalizing them. This would get rid of the problem most people have over paying for the immigrants in this country. Personally, i wouldn't like to see them go. In NYC immigrants probably take up every single labor intensive job (delivering services, porters, construction etc.), there won't be anyone left to fill those jobs if they all get deported.
 
  • #124
AE see my solution a few pages back: make those who sit on wellfare that just collect a check while being physically able to work do these jobs. i would rather see that then them living on my dime. i know where there is a good 400 or more and im in a sparcly populated area
 
  • #125
i dont think its blown up yet, still lots of good natured joking back and forth. we is discussing our ideas yet. no hint of name calling though yet. things have just wandered a bit, no biggy
 
  • #126
[b said:
Quote[/b] (SarraceniaScott @ May 03 2006,4:03)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (rattler_mt @ May 02 2006,3:06)]the "native americans" came from Asia originally and are also immigrants.
Yes, but they were the first humans to populate the land, and didn't displace an existing human population.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Immigration is the act of moving to or settling in another country or region, temporarily or permanently.

Original Native Americans where Immigrants.
 
  • #127
[b said:
Quote[/b] (rattler_mt @ May 09 2006,11:06)]i dont think its blown up yet, still lots of good natured joking back and forth. we is discussing our ideas yet. no hint of name calling though yet. things have just wandered a bit, no biggy
I meant it more in size though. No flamming has started yet, not surprised though because of the sensitive topic. (It could easily turn into what the "evolution" topid did... bad flashbacks..)
 
  • #128
actually THE best one i think was the homosexuality and religion one mayber 18 months to 2 years ago, that one got bad, i thought a few of use really were going to get booted for that one. this one has been a quite plesant discution, and it looks like it will continue to be so
 
  • #129
the last presidential election was good too, IIRC Bruce, April, Capslock and I all really got into it for awhile along with a few others. the next one should be interesting too as IIRC Bug, Ozzy and I are running
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  • #130
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I certainly don't feel an obligation to educate the spawn of illegal immigrants, and I begrudge every cent spent on them...we can't even properly educate the offspring of people who are inner city legal residents. Can you imagine being proud that 35% of the people in your high school graduated and are only marginally literate? The children of illegal immigrants, who often arrive not speaking a word of English, exacerbate this problem. Welcome to Chicago Public Schools.

I was wrong in assuming the civil rights act only included 'citizens', as it actually reads to include all 'persons' aleins or not.

I understand how you feel about the born an american thing but it is expressly stated in the first section of the 14th amendment that

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the juristiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside"

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] (It could easily turn into what the "evolution" topid did... bad flashbacks..)

Horror. I learned a important lesson and have after that never, ever tried to be anything more than polite and respectable when debating; never again will such a thing occur
 
  • #131
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Finch @ May 09 2006,11:19)]I understand how you feel about the born an american thing but it is expressly stated in the first section of the 14th amendment that

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the juristiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside"
Fine. The kids can stay..  but the parents shall be immediately deported. Soon as the kid hits the floor, the parents hit the road.

Let me also say that I don't believe that the intention of that law was ever meant to include illegals. The law was written so that the children of people who are here legally and in the process of becomming citizens would have the basic rights and privaliges that American citizens enjoy. It was never supposed to be a free pass to someone who is 9 months pregnant to sneak over here and then have a built in free pass to stay.
 
  • #132
VFT Guy i do believe your assesment of its intention is correct, to bad it didnt spell it out
 
  • #133
Many things were nto spelled out because these situations were not thought of or known back them. As I have said before I don;t mind them being here just do it legaly. Get papers. I am sure the system and process need to be streamlined. I wouldn;t have a problem with all the illegals here now coming forward and being allowed to stay. Just report and start the paperwork. The other issue beside having to pay for them is the fat that many of them are criminals from mexico. MS 13 ring a bell?
The issue about babies. I understand what the constitution says, and I will aboide by it. That doesn't mean I agree with it.

Mekele. It sounds like you have one kick teh butt job. If I didn't want to start my own nuirsery I would love to be a field botinist. I just don;t think there is anything in my area that would pay good money for me to do that. So I am going into nursing to finance my orchid/cp nursery, and snake (BP) breeding business.

This all and all was a good topic. I'm done though. I don;t believe that anyone is going to change anyone elses mind so thats that.
 
  • #134
Man, you guys are seriously long winded.
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  • #135
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Let me also say that I don't believe that the intention of that law was ever meant to include illegals. The law was written so that the children of people who are here legally and in the process of becomming citizens would have the basic rights and privaliges that American citizens enjoy. It was never supposed to be a free pass to someone who is 9 months pregnant to sneak over here and then have a built in free pass to stay.

Unfortuantly i have to agree as well
 
  • #136
By the time of the 14th Amendment, a huge number of babies had been born to non-citizens, temporary or otherwise.  I doubt the issue of their citizenship was overlooked.  The big problem with the 14th Ammendment is that it was interpreted later that century to give corporations constitutional protection as persons.  That is a vastly greater problem than whether an infant is a citizen or not.
 
  • #137
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Original Native Americans where Immigrants

Actually, I think the correct term is emigrants.
 
  • #138
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Actually, I think the correct term is emigrants.

It depends on your point of reference. The Native Americans were immigrants to the Americas, but emigrants from Asia. Alternately, using myself as an example, I'm an immigrant to the US, but an emigrant from the UK. Immigrants are those that enter the area of interest, emigrants are those that leave it. Technically everyone who moves is both, but which term applies depends on whether they're leaving (emigrant) or entering (immigrant) the area of interest.

Mokele
 
  • #139
Doesn't there need to be an established culture/county/whatever to immigrate into? You can't be an immigrant if there's nobody there to begin with....maybe just plane migrant would be the best description.
 
  • #140
I don't know if there's a special term for it with humans, but calling them immigrants into the area is accurate biologically. Of course, it's also accurate to call them an invasive species, from the biological standpoint.

Mokele
 
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