What's new
TerraForums Venus Flytrap, Nepenthes, Drosera and more talk

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Meet your meat

  • Thread starter 7santiago
  • Start date
  • #61
Unfortunately veganism seems to have become a quasi religion with its followers demanding you believe what they do or else your butt scum. Please don't preach to me the ethics of eating meat and I wont preach to you the ethics of eating the relatives of carnivorous plants.
 
  • #62
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Vegetarianism's always been an option. You just didn't go to the butchers and visited the bakers and vegetable seller.

Not actually; it depends upon your location and the availible foods. Some areas are blessed with a natural abundance of nutritious vegetables and fruits (which is why Mesopotamia became the birthplace of civilization), while others do not have such a diversity and *require* meat for survival (try telling an Inuit from AD 50 that he can live off native plant life alone.)

That said, the areas that can support humans on a strictly vegan diet are very few and far between. The odds are better for vegetarianism, but until the past few centuries, when global trade made a wide variety of crops availible to people from all over the world, even that would have only rarely been sustainable without *some* animal products.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Social change for reasons of morality has made a lot of countries a nicer place to live in. We tend not to see medieval methods of torture nowadays in most countries. People realised that's not really a nice thing to do, and now vegetarians think it's not a nice thing to eat animals. All the usual health stuff that's trotted out is ludicrous - we're meant to be omnivores etc. etc. If humans didn't change and adapt and progress, we'd all still be living on the plains in Africa.

Yes, but why are you assuming vegetarianism is a positive change? Because it's new? Plenty of new social fads have arisen that are clearly bad (ex: female genital mutilation being carried out all over africa and asia for similarly 'moral' reasons). Humanity has not been one glorious march of progress; various new ideas and ways have taken us backwards (hence the Dark Ages). So just because someone has a new idea that lets them get up on a pedastal and say how much more moral they are than the rest of us doesn't mean anything.

Additionally, any moral/ethic system is, by it's very nature, based on assumptions which cannot be tested. Some are widely agreed upon (basic human rights), while others are not, but popularity doesn't actually mean anything in terms of how likely a moral basis is to be true. Vegans have the assumption that killing is inherently wrong and that extends to animals, but that assumption is just that; an assumption. I, on the other hand, view death as not even a part of life, but the *basis* of life; everything feeds on death and destruction, and even our own bodies are made of elements produced only in the death of stars. My position has no more inherent truth, though, and is just as untestable. So basically, do what you want, but don't tell me that I have to live by someone else's rules.

Mokele
 
  • #63
[b said:
Quote[/b] (jack @ May 27 2006,3:11)]Unfortunately veganism seems to have become a quasi religion with its followers demanding you believe what they do or else your butt scum. Please don't preach to me the ethics of eating meat and I wont preach to you the ethics of eating the relatives of carnivorous plants.
Most of the vegans I know (maybe 4) don't preach at all. I think the ones who do are in the minority. The percentage of preaching vegans is probably the same as preaching meat eaters. Well, maybe not but who cares.
 
  • #64
All may have been to generalized, but it seems that they are a very vocal group.
 
  • #65
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Unfortunately veganism seems to have become a quasi religion with its followers demanding you believe what they do or else your butt scum. Please don't preach to me the ethics of eating meat and I wont preach to you the ethics of eating the relatives of carnivorous plants.

Yep, very generalised. They probably appear vocal because you seem to disagree. I'm sure vegans would say meaties are very vocal
smile.gif


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Yes, but why are you assuming vegetarianism is a positive change?

No, I meant the social shift enabling vegetarianism to come into existence is positive. Social progress is a postive thing - women getting the vote would be one example. My personal opinion is that vegetarianism is positive, but social progress enabling choice and fairness is certainly positive.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] Additionally, any moral/ethic system is, by it's very nature, based on assumptions which cannot be tested. Some are widely agreed upon (basic human rights), while others are not, but popularity doesn't actually mean anything in terms of how likely a moral basis is to be true. Vegans have the assumption that killing is inherently wrong and that extends to animals, but that assumption is just that; an assumption

Correct, but then everybody has different assumptions about all facets of morality. Basic human rights would be included in this.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]So just because someone has a new idea that lets them get up on a pedastal and say how much more moral they are than the rest of us doesn't mean anything.

Now you're assuming that everybody giving their views on this topic is preaching they are more moral than the rest of us, which is not true, as Dyflam mentioned.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Not actually; it depends upon your location and the availible foods. Some areas are blessed with a natural abundance of nutritious vegetables and fruits (which is why Mesopotamia became the birthplace of civilization), while others do not have such a diversity and *require* meat for survival (try telling an Inuit from AD 50 that he can live off native plant life alone.)

If I lived on an island with no animals, I would *require* grass for survival. If Mr Inuit really did want to stop eating meat he could, but moving. Ludicrous yes, but my point is that anybody can do anything if they have a belief.
 
  • #66
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Now you're assuming that everybody giving their views on this topic is preaching they are more moral than the rest of us, which is not true, as Dyflam mentioned.

Personally, it's been my experience that PETA and their ilk *are* preachy (and violent terrorists). When was the last time you saw scientists picketing PETA headquarters because of their position on animal testing, or ranchers throwing juice on people wearing non-leather clothes?

I've had this debate *countless* times, and *every* time, it's been a vegan/PETA-supporter who brought the subject up. And of all the times in those debates when someone claimed the moral high ground, it's been the PETA/vegan side calling the carnivores moral degenerates and Nazis and such.

Carnivores aren't the ones burning down research labs because of moral disagreements.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If I lived on an island with no animals, I would *require* grass for survival.

And, since it's not possible to do so, you would either starve, or go fishing. Ever notice how *every* island culture relies heavily on seafood? The mere practice of fish-farming is actually an innovation by the polynesian and austonesian peoples.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If Mr Inuit really did want to stop eating meat he could, but moving. Ludicrous yes, but my point is that anybody can do anything if they have a belief.

But could he? You say it's ludicrous, and that's for a good reason; in order to find an area with sufficiently rich plant produce that he could subsist without meat, the individual in question would have to trek thousands of mile *on foot*. And he'd still die of vitamin B12 deficiency in the end, since that's only from animal products.

The point is, in many geographic locales at many time periods, it was *not* possible to be vegan or even vegetarian without modern technology and/or herculean effort.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]No, I meant the social shift enabling vegetarianism to come into existence is positive. Social progress is a postive thing - women getting the vote would be one example. My personal opinion is that vegetarianism is positive, but social progress enabling choice and fairness is certainly positive.

Agreed; I've got no problem with people eating what they want, so long as they leave me alone to eat what I want and do my research.

Mokele
 
  • #67
I am a pure omnivore, I love meat and vegetables.

My question would be if all the vegetarian and vegans dislike meat so much, why do they make veggie food to look like meat products? There are veggie sausages, veggie bacon ,veggie pies flavoured to taste like chicken. I have even seen vegetarian steak made from Quorn. Almost all vegetarian products in supermarkets simulate meat products. Why???
 
  • #69
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]My question would be if all the vegetarian and vegans dislike meat so much, why do they make veggie food to look like meat products? There are veggie sausages, veggie bacon ,veggie pies flavoured to taste like chicken. I have even seen vegetarian steak made from Quorn. Almost all vegetarian products in supermarkets simulate meat products. Why???

Quorn is just mushroom and sausages and burgers are just shapes if you think about it. The meat flavours are flavours humans find tasty. Humans are designed to eat meat, I'm not denying that, but it's a conscious moral decision not to. Veggies don't dislike meat, they dislike the killing aspect.
 
  • #70
the one vegan i know chooses not to eat meat cause he doesnt like the taste of it, never has. when my sister was younger she informed my dad she was going vegitarian, he laughed at her and informed her she would starve in his house. took all of a week before the smell of a frying steak broke her down
smile_n_32.gif


BTW im a member of PETA, People for the Eating of Tastey Animals
smile_n_32.gif



just remember their is room for all gods creatures..........right next to the mashed potatoes

hmmmmmmm cant remember any others, got to get back to printing rodeo tickets.......................
mad.gif
 
  • #71
When my daughter was ~4, she decided to be a vegetarian because my wife was (I wasn't at that time).  She lasted a couple days until she asked to for a hamburger one night and we said that's meat.  She thought about it (not very long) and decided she wouldn't be a vegetarian anymore.  Now I'm a vegetarian (of the ovo-lacto variety), my wife eats a little fish to boost protein, and my daughter hardly eats a vegetable.  And the only meat I eat - smoked gamebirds once per year - is something my daughter won't even get close to.

I know vegetarians and vegans who say they dislike the taste and texture of meat too.  As for the veggie burger and so on trying so hard to be like meat, I don't think they're aimed at vegetarians and vegans.  They're aimed at people who want to eliminate meat from a few meals.  The best veggie burgers make no attempt to be like a hamburger and load up on vegetables or black beans or whatever.  And, since food on a bun is the highest form of our culinary tradition, a lot of veggie foods are shaped for that too.  But I've recently had veggie meatballs that are exactly like the fine-ground Italian meatballs available around here.  We have them on pasta one night and then make meatball sandwiches the following day.

By the way, only vegetarians are expert enough to be in on this discussion and the rest of you should get lost.
 
  • #72
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I know vegetarians and vegans who say they dislike the taste and texture of meat too.

See, that totally baffles me. I'd rather eat meat than just about anything else, and am rather indsicrimiate, to the extent just about everyone who knows me considers me the absolutely last person they'd want to be trapped on a desert island with.

I wonder if the Soylent Green T-shirt tipped them off...
smile_m_32.gif


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]By the way, only vegetarians are expert enough to be in on this discussion and the rest of you should get lost.

Usually it's the reverse, and they often don't know what they're talking about. I know of only one vegetarian I've yet met who can defend her position thoroughly enough for me to respect it.

Mokele
 
  • #75
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]What needs to be defended?

In the context of a debate, all aspects of a position. I don't care if people want to live according to an illogical philosophy, that's their business, only when they debate it with me does it become an issue. The individual I mentioned has so far been the only vegetarian whom I've debated who has been able to sufficiently defend her position.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]And you do?

On the biological aspects of the arguement, yes.

Mokele
 
  • #76
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I know of only one vegetarian I've yet met who can defend her position thoroughly enough for me to respect it.

Your notion that there is a position to be defended, it has to be defended, and that the defence of that position is rewarded by the honour of your respect is unbelievably arrogant.
 
  • #77
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Your notion that there is a position to be defended, it has to be defended, and that the defence of that position is rewarded by the honour of your respect is unbelievably arrogant.

How is that any more arrogant than your presumption that I must accord people my respect according to *your* ideas of how I should?

I happen to place a very high value on logic and reasoning. While I do afford everyone a certain baseline level of respect/courtesy, I most respect those who can cogently and logically debate their positions (or even other people's; a good Devil's Advocate is an exceptional individual).

Now, let's hear *your* cogent defense of why I have to ignore my values and personality in order to have a system of respect that meets your approval, shall we?

Mokele
 
  • #78
You don't have to ignore your values, but there's no good reason to toss out a sentence like "I know of only one vegetarian I've yet met who can defend her position thoroughly enough for me to respect it."  Cogent and logical debate can be just so much mental masturbation.  And that kind does cause blindness.
 
  • #79
You seem to picking an argument where there isn't one. I'm vegetarian, I've made the point that it is good that I have that choice, and I have pointed out that humans are designed to eat meat but I choose not to. I'm not telling you what to do, and there isn't a position for me to 'defend'.

The world doesn't care about whether you have respect for people or whether you live your life according to logic and structure your qualifications of appraisal on that system.
 
  • #80
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You don't have to ignore your values, but there's no good reason to toss out a sentence like "I know of only one vegetarian I've yet met who can defend her position thoroughly enough for me to respect it." Cogent and logical debate can be just so much mental masturbation. And that kind does cause blindness.

If your opinion of debate is so low, why are you participating in this thread?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You seem to picking an argument where there isn't one.

Funny, when I see people of differing views exchanging statments designed to support their view and convince others, I call that debate. And there's no reason why I shouldn't also weigh in with my knowledge and reasoning on the subject. Additionally, some of the statements posted were horrifically logically flawed or factually incorrect, and I feel compelled to point out these errors.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I'm not telling you what to do, and there isn't a position for me to 'defend'.

Try reading the thread. Specifically the bit in which you sanctimoniously proclaimed my internal psychological mechanism to be "arrogant" because they didn't match up with yours.

And any position that is stated is open to questioning. It's my view that if you cannot defend a statement, you shouldn't make that statement to begin with. Given that the thread opened with statements designed to provoke reaction and debate, the idea that concepts in this thread are open to debate seemed natural.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The world doesn't care about whether you have respect for people or whether you live your life according to logic and structure your qualifications of appraisal on that system.

And the world cares for your Armchair psychology? Here's a hint for the future: snap judgements about people's worldview are rarely right, especially when based on nothing more an internet posts.

Mokele
 
Back
Top