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Thread: I found this in the woods behind my house

  1. #41
    N=R* fs fp ne fl fi fc L Pyro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (SpyCspider @ May 31 2006,11:09)]...but how we as CP enthusiasts can place our own value in a habitat. "Why not just ring the trees and kill them?" Poor trees. So many years of growing just to be sacrificed for some etiolated S. alatas that probably shouldn't be there in the first place...
    I'm sorry I think I am valuing the habitat more than you realize. Historically these types of habitats would be burned almost annually due to forest fires. The arrival of humans upset that balance by preventing the fires and so the trees were "allowed" to take over areas where they would not have been normally. The S. alata were very likely there in the first place and have more of a "right" to exist there than the trees.

    The ringing of the trees may sound drastic but only if you do not actually know the history of the habitat. This same technique has been used by conservation groups to restore other threatened Sarracenia habitats (most notably the S, montana bogs in GA). And there are similar conservation groups that do controlled burns for the same reason.

    So it is not "Poor trees. So many years of growing just to be sacrificed for some etiolated S. alatas that probably shouldn't be there in the first place."

    It should be:

    Poor S. alata. Being chocked out of their rightful habitat by trees because people had to come in and screw up the whole ecosystem.
    'My love was science- specifically biology and, more specifically, when placed in a common jar, which of two organisms would devour the other.'

    See You Space Cowboy

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  2. #42
    srduggins's Avatar
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    I have been lurking around in this thread for a couple days and decided it was time I posted. I usually spend all my time in the Nepenthes board.

    I know how petty some church people can become, but we are not all like that. I for one am very happy you found your son and know how troubling a situation like that can be. To return home to a house on fire just boggles the mind. My heart goes out to you. I'd like to help. Since I am so far away, I can pray for you, your family and your church. I can also offer a CP care package. I'm not really sure what you grow, but I have a VFT for the little girl, some misc. Drosera, and an 18 month old Nepenthes ventricosa seedling. PM me if interested.

    I have one brother, (and his wife), who lived in a manse for years before recently purchasing their own home. I am sure they are quite happy not having to deal with a committee every time they want to change something. I have another brother displaced by Katrina who happens to be in the roofing business. He forces himself to take one day a week off, otherwise he would be busy 16/7.

    Back on topic, I'm not really a conservation expert, but tend to agree with Pyro. It would be best to restore the habitat. I'm glad you were able to rescue a couple plants for yourself.
    A day without Nepenthes is like a day without sunshine

    --steve

  3. #43
    SpyCspider's Avatar
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    Ok,

    While I agree with Pyro in that the act of reducing tree growth for CP survival probably agrees with what should have happened prior to human encroachment, as evidenced by many well-managed fires that park services employ, I think IN THIS PARTICULAR situation, you can't just go around hacking trees without people noticing when tall trees start to topple. If you want to get rid of some shrubs, that's fine. But ringing trees so an open space can develop is going to take time and drastically change the landscape...and all for some S. alatas. But hey, if it can work, more power to you. It IS your property, I guess.

    I'm just saying at this point in time with people living there and such, clearing out tall trees may be harder than just digging up the plants and transferring them to a better place. While not the same as a Southern savannah, we all know how a northern bog transitions in the wild. The forest edge encroaches on the open water and gradually, what used to be a lake/bog becomes filled with pines and finally with oaks and hardwoods. The bog is gone as a result. That's succession as well and not due to human involvement.

    When you do something to correct something else, you're still introducing human factors to an environment, even if the intention is to correct what has been done before.

  4. #44
    N=R* fs fp ne fl fi fc L Pyro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (SpyCspider @ May 31 2006,1:12)]I think IN THIS PARTICULAR situation, you can't just go around hacking trees without people noticing when tall trees start to topple. If you want to get rid of some shrubs, that's fine. But ringing trees so an open space can develop is going to take time and drastically change the landscape...and all for some S. alatas. But hey, if it can work, more power to you.
    My first post in the thread basically covered everything you seem to be objecting to:

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ] More labor intensive but still functional. Not nearly as whole out "destruction" either. You'd still need land owner permission though.
    -I said it was labor intensive and it is. It would probably require yearly upkeep to ensure thae habitat.

    -I said it is not as destructive as fire and that is true. It also does not require quite the level of coordination as a fire since you'd need to go though the fire dept. to do a burn.

    -I also said the the property owner would need to give permission. To give permission they would have to be informed and if they were informed it is not as if they would "suddenly" discover that the trees were dying. I never once implied or suggested that the ringing be done secretly or without concent and I would never condone such an action.

    I guess what I am getting at is that I don't really understand your objections to what I am saying when I have already answered the questions you seem to be putting forth as arguments against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]...and all for some S. alatas.
    With this I do kind of agree with you. I was discussing this with a friend and he put it rather well. Not quoting him directly but the gist is that there are a lot of S. alata sites in Mississippi and you have to be philosophical about the matter. What would be the purpose of saving/digging up these specific plants if they are not really all that unique/different from any of the other, more established or protected stands?
    'My love was science- specifically biology and, more specifically, when placed in a common jar, which of two organisms would devour the other.'

    See You Space Cowboy

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  5. #45
    N=R* fs fp ne fl fi fc L Pyro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (srduggins @ May 31 2006,12:57)]but tend to agree with Pyro. It would be best to restore the habitat.
    Actually, I was not really saying that it is best to restore the habitat, and personally I have no particular leaning in this case. If B28 wants to go for habitat restoration then that is her choice and if she does not then that too is her choice. I don't judge her either way. I was initially just offering an alternative to burning since that seemed totally out.

    And after that I was just pointing out that habitat restoration is not the antithesis of conservation and that something that sounds destructive really is in actuallity conservation.
    'My love was science- specifically biology and, more specifically, when placed in a common jar, which of two organisms would devour the other.'

    See You Space Cowboy

    actagggcagtgatatcccattggtacatggcaaattagcctcatgat
    Hagerstown, Maryland

    --
    actagggcagtgatatcccattggtacatggcaaattagcctcatgat

  6. #46
    SpyCspider's Avatar
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    Gotcha

    I guess I didn't read your post thoroughly enough. I just saw "killing trees to save S. alatas" due to previous human encroachment as simply another sign of human involvement. So if human labor is going to be involved no matter what, one might as well just take the plants out and neither pitchers nor trees will have to do die because of each other being there.

    That is a pretty interesting technique, however, "ringing." Learned something new everyday.

  7. #47
    Nepenthes Specialist nepenthes gracilis's Avatar
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    Easy fix, shovel, dig plants, give to park rangers, done deal. Nobody will "loose their job" over that.

  8. #48
    srduggins's Avatar
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    Here's another easy fix:

    Everyone concentrates on the problems we're having in
    this country lately. Illegal immigration, hurricane
    recovery, wild animals attacking humans in Florida.
    Not me. I concentrate on solutions to problems.
    The result is a win-win-win situation:

    + Use the Illegals to dig a moat the length of the
    Mexican border
    + Use the dirt to raise the levies in New Orleans
    + Put the Florida alligators in the moat.


    Any other problems you would like for me to solve
    today?
    A day without Nepenthes is like a day without sunshine

    --steve

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