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Thread: Pouching CPs in North Carolina

  1. #17
    CopcarFC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]So you're saying a) poaching is ok and b) VFTs are worthless so let them go extinct?
    If they were worthless why whould I grow them? Sure VFT's look cool and everything but I just don't think they hold much value to the enviroment. Thats why they only grow naturally in a few states unlike other CP's that are very widespread.

    No matter how much whining and complaining you or any organization dose, VFT's will allways be poached. You might be able to slow it down a little and give VFT's maybie 20-50 more years in the wild but your just delaying the inevitable. VFT's in the wild are on their way out thats just the way it is. But they will never go extinct in cultivation. So I go back to my first post.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I think CP's are like Cow's in the fact that even if they are wild collected they will never go extinct because people grow them and nurseries reproduce them by the thousands. So I don't really see why anyone cares that they are wild collected.
    My life sucks

  2. #18
    CopcarFC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (seedjar @ June 25 2006,3:28)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (CopcarFC @ June 25 2006,11:19)]Dude you know just as well as I do that there are TONS of VFT cultivars.
    I think it's worth pointing out here that many cultivars are closely related, and more than that, they often display less vigor in exchange for their exotic looks. Plants bred for a certain form are already inbred to some extent and aren't as valuable to the genepool as wildtype individuals. Bugsy and other veteran growers might have a few caches of healthy wild-collected plants, but how many of those plants remain compared to the hundreds of thousands (probably millions) that have been taken by poachers? They've been poached for decades; a few educated growers may have saved a small fraction of the population, but how much could it be? Maybe one percent of the plants harvested in the past, say, fifty years? Even that sounds like a generous estimate to me; it's probably more like a fraction of a percent.
    ~Joe
    Maybie I read this wrong and if I did then let me know.

    But it seems that you are saying that VFT's that show specific traits and have somewhat similar genes have weaker offspring.

    Well, I'm a black guy. So if I hook up with a black chick and we have a kid, under your theory our kid will be weaker than if I hooked up with a white chick. Because both me and the black chick have similar traits (dark skin, black hair, brown eyes, ext). But me and the white chick have almost no common traits so that kid would be better? Let me know if I'm on the right track here.
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  3. #19
    CopcarFC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Alvin Meister @ June 25 2006,3:16)]Good luck trying to replace 100,000 plants with seeds from a few seedpods. One person's collection and 'tons' (5 or 6?) of cultivars are not going to repopulate a massive area any time soon.
    Did you not read my last post?

    CopcarFC:
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Now I am not saying we should put VFT's back into the wild. I don't think VFT's hold any value to the ecosystem. But Sarra's, Ping's, and Nep's are so widespread that they must hold some value to the enviroment so they should be protected.
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  4. #20
    It's been one of dem days BigCarnivourKid's Avatar
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    CCFC, you are making so many assumptions in your previus post I’m having trouble deciding where to start. So I will start with
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (CopcarFC @ June 25 2006,1:19)]…Hell, Bugweed proves my point perfectly. He has a bunch of different VFT types that are allowed to intermingle and fire out some great seeds that have tons of genetic differences.
    You've confused "type" with "varieties" as Dionaea Muscipula is monotypic. There is only one type of Dionaea Muscipula and that is your common, everyday, run of the mill VFT. There are, however a lot of different cultivated varieties (cultivar).

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (CopcarFC @ June 25 2006,1:19)]No matter how you look at it the "VFT-A has the same genes as VFT-B so they will make weaker offspring and eventually die out" theory is 100% wrong because…
    I think if you look at human genetics, you’ll find that the statement “VFT-A has the same genes as VFT-B so they will make weaker offspring and eventually die out" can be proven true. For example it is illegal in many countries to have kids from a close relative such as a sister/brother, mother/father and first cousins. In other words, incest (inbreeding) is forbidden in many societies. Not only for moral reasons but for genetic reasons as well. The offspring of such unions often have mental and/or physical disabilities. This is as true for plants as it is for animals. By breeding a plant with itself or a clone, your gene pool is even smaller.


    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]…There are far more than "one" genetic stamp on what is in your yard/greenhouse/bog. Hell, Bugweed proves my point perfectly. He has a bunch of different VFT types that are allowed to intermingle and fire out some great seeds that have tons of genetic differences.
    In large part because he started with hundreds of wild, seed grown plants, which gave his VFTs more genetic diversity to start with. Remember he said:
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Bugweed @ June 24 2006,8:23)]The biggest bulk of my VFT's were wild collected. By the Carolina Biological Supply in North Carolina. Then, they had a permit to do so for scientific reasons. I got a lot of mine from them. Plus, a lot of nurseries sold them, before tissue culture for $0.69 cents a pot with three banded VFT's, full grown. I bought a ton of VFT's from those sources......
    If they are wild collected they could only have come from seed which would have been produced by pollen from any of several hundred flowers in the area around the plant. Our "store bought" plants only have the genetic diversity found in the few plants and seeds cloned by the CP industry and don't hold a candle to that of Bugweed's plants let alone that of the plants still in the wild. No matter how you slice, it the genetic diversity of cultivated plants is limited to only a few plants and some of the varieties that have been grown. When you consider that many varieties are grown not for any improvement to a plants hardiness or adaptability, but for its appeal to the human eye, the plants left that represent a typical healthy, hardy VFT becomes even more limited. Especially when you consider that inbreeding is used to get the characteristic of many cultivars, your gene pool is even shallower than it at first appears.


    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]CopcarFC buys a VFT from Wallmart.
    He brings it home and sits it next to his unknown VFT from Bugweed.
    They both flower and make seed.

    You see the Wallmart VFT was reproduced by the thousands from one plant. But Bugweeds VFT is not, so when they mix the seeds are just as strong as they would have been in the wild.
    First sentence: No, they were produced from either tissue culture of a few seeds or from a cuttings from one plant. They are still clones. Lots of plants and a shallow gene pool. As for the second sentence, of course they are! You are mixing the genes of two genetically different plants. Unless the Wal Mart plant is a clone of the plant from Bugweed.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (CopcarFC @ June 25 2006,1:19)]I don't think VFT's hold any value to the ecosystem. But Sarra's, Ping's, and Nep's are so widespread that they must hold some value to the environment so they should be protected.
    That is your opinion of course, but I think they should be protected because they are unique. There is nothing else like them. Similar yes, but not like them. They fill a niche in the ecosystem and serve some use in it or they would have disappeared long before man started usurping their habitat for his own.
    ---Steve Allinger---

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  5. #21
    SirKristoff is a poopiehead Ozzy's Avatar
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    Please don't take this wrong, but you are truly ignorant of plant or animal biology. Under your theory, since we have plenty of elephants, and tigers in zoos, who cares if they are all poached from the wild. We will still be able to go see them anytime we want. Who cares if all the dolphins die out, sea world has plenty of them.

    Now let me tackle you example of you reproducing with a black chick. Reproducing the genetic clones, like tissue culture vft's, are more like you reproducing with your sister. I think we all know that the offspring will have a high chance of having some genetic defects. Now say all your and your sisters offspring reproduce with only siblings and cousins. I don't know what the effects will be, but I'm sure the offspring would have a high mortality rate and some very serious birth defects. Pretty soon your genes wouldn't die out and not be passed on into the future. Same thing with plants. If you keep cross breeding the same genetic material, each offspring will be weaker and weaker.

    I think your position on removing plants from the wild is the biggest flaw in humans. The only think we care about is making money, and to climb the social ladder. I got to have more than my neighbor has. The more we take from the earth, the sooner mother nature will end our rein on here.

    Every plant and animal has it's place on this earth, and it's not in a zoos cage nor in a pot on your widow sill. We are so conceited to think vft's are ours to take. They belong where they have grown for thousands if not millions of years and that's around the Carolina bays in North and South Carolina., You need to realize they are not dying out, they are growing and thriving in the area they belong. The problem is that so many people from Ohio, New York and New Jersey what to have a winter home on the same land that belongs to the native plants and animals that was here way before we were.

  6. #22
    SirKristoff is a poopiehead Ozzy's Avatar
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    Wow BCK, I think we both are trying to say the same thing.

  7. #23

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    Well, CCFC, I have to agree with BCK and Ozzy. There value is greater than silver or gold. Same with sarrs. Sarracenia are better adapted to their lives in the bog. As XSCD pointed out, VFT's grow mostly in sandy savannah, and the water table is under them flowing slowly through the soil. They do live in boggier environs (like Cartwheel Bay, Horry County, S.C.) But the greatest number in the "Green" I have seen, live a little drier. Maybe they will be wiped out someday, but I do not want to be stuck with only registered cultivars to grow. It isn't EVEN the same! I have seen some wicked variations in the field, as I am sure Ozzy has. I have found giant forms here and there with a span of 12 to 14 inches, and 3 inch traps. MONSTERS!!! Can't get that with a cultivar. THAT is only locked in the genes of the wild plants. I mix all my cultivars with my wild collected to increase their color forms, and keep those poor cultivars from being cranked out one after another to people who don't understand you are only buying one or two TC clones, so your gene pool and color variation is essentially gone. I will stick to my wild plants as they will eventually throw a "cultivar" looking plant anyway. And be a lot stronger in its genetic makeup. I understand your point CCFC, but it is not the best one I have ever heard. Believe me, I have heard MUCH worse! You have a lot of homework to do, but too, you have all those seeds I gave you! I know you will be passing the pollen around so that your plants do not become weak, "who the heck wants these", kind of plants. If given the choice, wild plants every time. Luckily, I got those, years ago!!!



    45 yrs. growin\'
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    Any pictures of the 12in plants with 3in traps




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