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Pouching CPs in North Carolina

I was thinking of posting this article. I was trying to decide if it was a good idea to publish to the poachers how you plan to catch them.
 
Pouchers become CP food.

Feed Me Seymore!

A lot of folks deserve to die!

Sincerely,
Brendhan
 
That really is a silly practice when real nurserys grow thousands and thousands through tissue culture.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (CPsInAtl @ June 24 2006,9:10)]That really is a silly practice when real nurserys grow thousands and thousands through tissue culture.
I agree, though you are thinking logically. Not everyone does that.
I bought a couple at Walmart the other night for $5 each. Not that I don't have them, but they had dentate and typical with traps an inch or more!
Interesting dilemna, Ozzy. Do you let poachers know so they don't try(hopefully), or catch them after they do?

Cheers,

Joe
 
I will do both. I make sure people know the penelty for poaching. I agree with stopping poaching through education. The problem is that education only stops the people that would like to have a couple of plants to grow. The biggest daunger from poaching comes from the ones that do it for profit. No amount of education will stop them. They will try want ever it takes to beat the system.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]That really is a silly practice when real nurserys grow thousands and thousands through tissue culture.

Think about this. If I only cared about making a dollar, why would I pay a nusery for vft's when I know where thousands of them are growing. I can buy them in bulk for for less than a dollar each, or I can go dig them up for free.
 
The biggest bulk of my VFT's were wild collected. By the Carolina Biological Supply in North Carolina. Then, they had a permit to do so for scientific reasons. I got a lot of mine from them. Plus, a lot of nurseries sold them, pre tissue culture for $0.69 cents a pot with three banded VFT's, full grown. I bought a ton of VFT's from those sources. In those days they were all wild collected. As it is, tissue culture may be the only way to eventually save them, but with the wild pollen in my circulating bog, I have an AWFUL lot of genetic diversity out there!!! And I am giving away seed later this month or July. These genes will yield a lot of forms for those who get seed from me this year.
 
I think CP's are like Cow's in the fact that even if they are wild collected they will never go extinct because people grow them and nurseries reproduce them by the thousands. So I don't really see why anyone cares that they are wild collected.
 
CopcarFC will wind some people up. I think habitat loss is a greater problem than wild collection, but each needs to be addressed.
 
  • #10
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]wild collected they will never go extinct because people grow them and nurseries reproduce them by the thousands.  So I don't really see why anyone cares that they are wild collected.

Nurseries reproduce one single clone by the thousands. Replant those back into the wild and the lack of genetic diversity will produce poor and weak plants. Only a few nurseries grow them from seed.
Sarracenia oreophila is so rare that there are populations with 1-10 plants, which struggle to repopulate their area and have a poor gene pool. If it was so easy to replant because of the thousands nurseries churn out, we wouldn't have CITES I listed carnivorous plants.
Wild plants should be protected. The 'we'll just replant them when they go extinct' argument is flawed.
 
  • #11
[b said:
Quote[/b] (0zzy @ June 23 2006,11:56)]I was thinking of posting this article. I was trying to decide if it was a good idea to publish to the poachers how you plan to catch them.
From the article...
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Mattox added that the program works not by marking every plant, but by leaving poachers guessing as to which ginseng plants have been targeted for the dye.

"We would rather educate and deter than arrest someone," he said, "and that's what this program is doing."
Part of the plan is to let the poachers know what they're doing. It becomes a deterrent ...
 
  • #12
I too am shocked by that remark, CCFC. Maybe if you explained the reasoning behind your statement, it would clear things up a bit. Otherwise, it would be easy to think you have no scruples, and would collect, just 'cause you feel like it. Care to comment???
As Alvin so kindly pointed out, where is the genetic diversity? Tissue culture gives you the SAME genetic stamp over and over and over. Hard to pass genes to a plant whose stamp is the same as the one before it. NO THANK YOU!!!! I will stick with my genetically diverse plants I have right now. All 100+ of them. The color forms I get, are intense! And all different!
 
  • #13
BTW. I meant to ask. What is pouching CP??? I don't think I've ever done that. Is there a technique to it??
 
  • #14
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Alvin Meister @ June 25 2006,10:52)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]wild collected they will never go extinct because people grow them and nurseries reproduce them by the thousands. So I don't really see why anyone cares that they are wild collected.

Nurseries reproduce one single clone by the thousands. Replant those back into the wild and the lack of genetic diversity will produce poor and weak plants. Only a few nurseries grow them from seed.
Sarracenia oreophila is so rare that there are populations with 1-10 plants, which struggle to repopulate their area and have a poor gene pool. If it was so easy to replant because of the thousands nurseries churn out, we wouldn't have CITES I listed carnivorous plants.
Wild plants should be protected. The 'we'll just replant them when they go extinct' argument is flawed.
Dude you know just as well as I do that there are TONS of VFT cultivars. There are far more than "one" genetic stamp on what is in your yard/greenhouse/bog. Hell, Bugweed proves my point perfectly. He has a bunch of different VFT types that are allowed to intermingle and fire out some great seeds that have tons of genetic differences. No matter how you look at it the "VFT-A has the same genes as VFT-B so they will make weaker offspring and eventually die out" theory is 100% wrong because...

CopcarFC buys a VFT from Wallmart.
He brings it home and sits it next to his unknown VFT from Bugweed.
They both flower and make seed.

You see the Wallmart VFT was reproduced by the thousands from one plant. But Bugweeds VFT is not, so when they mix the seeds are just as strong as they would have been in the wild.


Now I am not saying we should put VFT's back into the wild. I don't think VFT's hold any value to the ecosystem. But Sarra's, Ping's, and Nep's are so widespread that they must hold some value to the enviroment so they should be protected.
 
  • #15
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Dude you know just as well as I do that there are TONS of VFT cultivars.  There are far more than "one" genetic stamp on what is in your yard/greenhouse/bog.  Hell, Bugweed proves my point perfectly.  He has a bunch of different VFT types that are allowed to intermingle and fire out some great seeds that have tons of genetic differences.  No matter how you look at it the "VFT-A has the same genes as VFT-B so they will make weaker offspring and eventually die out" theory is 100% wrong because...

CopcarFC buys a VFT from Wallmart.
He brings it home and sits it next to his unknown VFT from Bugweed.
They both flower and make seed.

You see the Wallmart VFT was reproduced by the thousands from one plant.  But Bugweeds VFT is not, so when they mix the  seeds are just as strong as they would have been in the wild.  

Good luck trying to replace 100,000 plants with seeds from a few seedpods. One person's collection and 'tons' (5 or 6?) of cultivars are not going to repopulate a massive area any time soon.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Now I am not saying we should put VFT's back into the wild.  I don't think VFT's hold any value to the ecosystem.

So you're saying a) poaching is ok and b) VFTs are worthless so let them go extinct?

Bizarre.
 
  • #16
[b said:
Quote[/b] (CopcarFC @ June 25 2006,11:19)]Dude you know just as well as I do that there are TONS of VFT cultivars.
I think it's worth pointing out here that many cultivars are closely related, and more than that, they often display less vigor in exchange for their exotic looks. Plants bred for a certain form are already inbred to some extent and aren't as valuable to the genepool as wildtype individuals. Bugsy and other veteran growers might have a few caches of healthy wild-collected plants, but how many of those plants remain compared to the hundreds of thousands (probably millions) that have been taken by poachers? They've been poached for decades; a few educated growers may have saved a small fraction of the population, but how much could it be? Maybe one percent of the plants harvested in the past, say, fifty years? Even that sounds like a generous estimate to me; it's probably more like a fraction of a percent.
~Joe
 
  • #17
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]So you're saying a) poaching is ok and b) VFTs are worthless so let them go extinct?

If they were worthless why whould I grow them? Sure VFT's look cool and everything but I just don't think they hold much value to the enviroment. Thats why they only grow naturally in a few states unlike other CP's that are very widespread.

No matter how much whining and complaining you or any organization dose, VFT's will allways be poached. You might be able to slow it down a little and give VFT's maybie 20-50 more years in the wild but your just delaying the inevitable. VFT's in the wild are on their way out thats just the way it is. But they will never go extinct in cultivation. So I go back to my first post.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I think CP's are like Cow's in the fact that even if they are wild collected they will never go extinct because people grow them and nurseries reproduce them by the thousands. So I don't really see why anyone cares that they are wild collected.
 
  • #18
[b said:
Quote[/b] (seedjar @ June 25 2006,3:28)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (CopcarFC @ June 25 2006,11:19)]Dude you know just as well as I do that there are TONS of VFT cultivars.
I think it's worth pointing out here that many cultivars are closely related, and more than that, they often display less vigor in exchange for their exotic looks. Plants bred for a certain form are already inbred to some extent and aren't as valuable to the genepool as wildtype individuals. Bugsy and other veteran growers might have a few caches of healthy wild-collected plants, but how many of those plants remain compared to the hundreds of thousands (probably millions) that have been taken by poachers? They've been poached for decades; a few educated growers may have saved a small fraction of the population, but how much could it be? Maybe one percent of the plants harvested in the past, say, fifty years? Even that sounds like a generous estimate to me; it's probably more like a fraction of a percent.
~Joe
Maybie I read this wrong and if I did then let me know.

But it seems that you are saying that VFT's that show specific traits and have somewhat similar genes have weaker offspring.

Well, I'm a black guy. So if I hook up with a black chick and we have a kid, under your theory our kid will be weaker than if I hooked up with a white chick. Because both me and the black chick have similar traits (dark skin, black hair, brown eyes, ext). But me and the white chick have almost no common traits so that kid would be better? Let me know if I'm on the right track here.
 
  • #19
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Alvin Meister @ June 25 2006,3:16)]Good luck trying to replace 100,000 plants with seeds from a few seedpods. One person's collection and 'tons' (5 or 6?) of cultivars are not going to repopulate a massive area any time soon.
Did you not read my last post?

CopcarFC:
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Now I am not saying we should put VFT's back into the wild. I don't think VFT's hold any value to the ecosystem. But Sarra's, Ping's, and Nep's are so widespread that they must hold some value to the enviroment so they should be protected.
 
  • #20
CCFC, you are making so many assumptions in your previus post I’m having trouble deciding where to start. So I will start with
[b said:
Quote[/b] (CopcarFC @ June 25 2006,1:19)]…Hell, Bugweed proves my point perfectly. He has a bunch of different VFT types that are allowed to intermingle and fire out some great seeds that have tons of genetic differences.
You've confused "type" with "varieties" as Dionaea Muscipula is monotypic. There is only one type of Dionaea Muscipula and that is your common, everyday, run of the mill VFT. There are, however a lot of different cultivated varieties (cultivar).

[b said:
Quote[/b] (CopcarFC @ June 25 2006,1:19)]No matter how you look at it the "VFT-A has the same genes as VFT-B so they will make weaker offspring and eventually die out" theory is 100% wrong because…
I think if you look at human genetics, you’ll find that the statement “VFT-A has the same genes as VFT-B so they will make weaker offspring and eventually die out" can be proven true. For example it is illegal in many countries to have kids from a close relative such as a sister/brother, mother/father and first cousins. In other words, incest (inbreeding) is forbidden in many societies. Not only for moral reasons but for genetic reasons as well. The offspring of such unions often have mental and/or physical disabilities. This is as true for plants as it is for animals. By breeding a plant with itself or a clone, your gene pool is even smaller.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]…There are far more than "one" genetic stamp on what is in your yard/greenhouse/bog. Hell, Bugweed proves my point perfectly. He has a bunch of different VFT types that are allowed to intermingle and fire out some great seeds that have tons of genetic differences.
In large part because he started with hundreds of wild, seed grown plants, which gave his VFTs more genetic diversity to start with. Remember he said:
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Bugweed @ June 24 2006,8:23)]The biggest bulk of my VFT's were wild collected. By the Carolina Biological Supply in North Carolina. Then, they had a permit to do so for scientific reasons. I got a lot of mine from them. Plus, a lot of nurseries sold them, before tissue culture for $0.69 cents a pot with three banded VFT's, full grown. I bought a ton of VFT's from those sources......
If they are wild collected they could only have come from seed which would have been produced by pollen from any of several hundred flowers in the area around the plant. Our "store bought" plants only have the genetic diversity found in the few plants and seeds cloned by the CP industry and don't hold a candle to that of Bugweed's plants let alone that of the plants still in the wild. No matter how you slice, it the genetic diversity of cultivated plants is limited to only a few plants and some of the varieties that have been grown. When you consider that many varieties are grown not for any improvement to a plants hardiness or adaptability, but for its appeal to the human eye, the plants left that represent a typical healthy, hardy VFT becomes even more limited. Especially when you consider that inbreeding is used to get the characteristic of many cultivars, your gene pool is even shallower than it at first appears.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]CopcarFC buys a VFT from Wallmart.
He brings it home and sits it next to his unknown VFT from Bugweed.
They both flower and make seed.

You see the Wallmart VFT was reproduced by the thousands from one plant. But Bugweeds VFT is not, so when they mix the seeds are just as strong as they would have been in the wild.
First sentence: No, they were produced from either tissue culture of a few seeds or from a cuttings from one plant. They are still clones. Lots of plants and a shallow gene pool. As for the second sentence, of course they are! You are mixing the genes of two genetically different plants. Unless the Wal Mart plant is a clone of the plant from Bugweed.

[b said:
Quote[/b] (CopcarFC @ June 25 2006,1:19)]I don't think VFT's hold any value to the ecosystem. But Sarra's, Ping's, and Nep's are so widespread that they must hold some value to the environment so they should be protected.
That is your opinion of course, but I think they should be protected because they are unique. There is nothing else like them. Similar yes, but not like them. They fill a niche in the ecosystem and serve some use in it or they would have disappeared long before man started usurping their habitat for his own.
 
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