I agree, though you are thinking logically. Not everyone does that.[b said:Quote[/b] (CPsInAtl @ June 24 2006,9:10)]That really is a silly practice when real nurserys grow thousands and thousands through tissue culture.
[b said:Quote[/b] ]That really is a silly practice when real nurserys grow thousands and thousands through tissue culture.
[b said:Quote[/b] ]wild collected they will never go extinct because people grow them and nurseries reproduce them by the thousands. So I don't really see why anyone cares that they are wild collected.
From the article...[b said:Quote[/b] (0zzy @ June 23 2006,11:56)]I was thinking of posting this article. I was trying to decide if it was a good idea to publish to the poachers how you plan to catch them.
Part of the plan is to let the poachers know what they're doing. It becomes a deterrent ...[b said:Quote[/b] ]Mattox added that the program works not by marking every plant, but by leaving poachers guessing as to which ginseng plants have been targeted for the dye.
"We would rather educate and deter than arrest someone," he said, "and that's what this program is doing."
Dude you know just as well as I do that there are TONS of VFT cultivars. There are far more than "one" genetic stamp on what is in your yard/greenhouse/bog. Hell, Bugweed proves my point perfectly. He has a bunch of different VFT types that are allowed to intermingle and fire out some great seeds that have tons of genetic differences. No matter how you look at it the "VFT-A has the same genes as VFT-B so they will make weaker offspring and eventually die out" theory is 100% wrong because...[b said:Quote[/b] (Alvin Meister @ June 25 2006,10:52)][b said:Quote[/b] ]wild collected they will never go extinct because people grow them and nurseries reproduce them by the thousands. So I don't really see why anyone cares that they are wild collected.
Nurseries reproduce one single clone by the thousands. Replant those back into the wild and the lack of genetic diversity will produce poor and weak plants. Only a few nurseries grow them from seed.
Sarracenia oreophila is so rare that there are populations with 1-10 plants, which struggle to repopulate their area and have a poor gene pool. If it was so easy to replant because of the thousands nurseries churn out, we wouldn't have CITES I listed carnivorous plants.
Wild plants should be protected. The 'we'll just replant them when they go extinct' argument is flawed.
[b said:Quote[/b] ]Dude you know just as well as I do that there are TONS of VFT cultivars. There are far more than "one" genetic stamp on what is in your yard/greenhouse/bog. Hell, Bugweed proves my point perfectly. He has a bunch of different VFT types that are allowed to intermingle and fire out some great seeds that have tons of genetic differences. No matter how you look at it the "VFT-A has the same genes as VFT-B so they will make weaker offspring and eventually die out" theory is 100% wrong because...
CopcarFC buys a VFT from Wallmart.
He brings it home and sits it next to his unknown VFT from Bugweed.
They both flower and make seed.
You see the Wallmart VFT was reproduced by the thousands from one plant. But Bugweeds VFT is not, so when they mix the seeds are just as strong as they would have been in the wild.
[b said:Quote[/b] ]Now I am not saying we should put VFT's back into the wild. I don't think VFT's hold any value to the ecosystem.
I think it's worth pointing out here that many cultivars are closely related, and more than that, they often display less vigor in exchange for their exotic looks. Plants bred for a certain form are already inbred to some extent and aren't as valuable to the genepool as wildtype individuals. Bugsy and other veteran growers might have a few caches of healthy wild-collected plants, but how many of those plants remain compared to the hundreds of thousands (probably millions) that have been taken by poachers? They've been poached for decades; a few educated growers may have saved a small fraction of the population, but how much could it be? Maybe one percent of the plants harvested in the past, say, fifty years? Even that sounds like a generous estimate to me; it's probably more like a fraction of a percent.[b said:Quote[/b] (CopcarFC @ June 25 2006,11:19)]Dude you know just as well as I do that there are TONS of VFT cultivars.
[b said:Quote[/b] ]So you're saying a) poaching is ok and b) VFTs are worthless so let them go extinct?
[b said:Quote[/b] ]I think CP's are like Cow's in the fact that even if they are wild collected they will never go extinct because people grow them and nurseries reproduce them by the thousands. So I don't really see why anyone cares that they are wild collected.
Maybie I read this wrong and if I did then let me know.[b said:Quote[/b] (seedjar @ June 25 2006,3:28)]I think it's worth pointing out here that many cultivars are closely related, and more than that, they often display less vigor in exchange for their exotic looks. Plants bred for a certain form are already inbred to some extent and aren't as valuable to the genepool as wildtype individuals. Bugsy and other veteran growers might have a few caches of healthy wild-collected plants, but how many of those plants remain compared to the hundreds of thousands (probably millions) that have been taken by poachers? They've been poached for decades; a few educated growers may have saved a small fraction of the population, but how much could it be? Maybe one percent of the plants harvested in the past, say, fifty years? Even that sounds like a generous estimate to me; it's probably more like a fraction of a percent.[b said:Quote[/b] (CopcarFC @ June 25 2006,11:19)]Dude you know just as well as I do that there are TONS of VFT cultivars.
~Joe
Did you not read my last post?[b said:Quote[/b] (Alvin Meister @ June 25 2006,3:16)]Good luck trying to replace 100,000 plants with seeds from a few seedpods. One person's collection and 'tons' (5 or 6?) of cultivars are not going to repopulate a massive area any time soon.
[b said:Quote[/b] ]Now I am not saying we should put VFT's back into the wild. I don't think VFT's hold any value to the ecosystem. But Sarra's, Ping's, and Nep's are so widespread that they must hold some value to the enviroment so they should be protected.
You've confused "type" with "varieties" as Dionaea Muscipula is monotypic. There is only one type of Dionaea Muscipula and that is your common, everyday, run of the mill VFT. There are, however a lot of different cultivated varieties (cultivar).[b said:Quote[/b] (CopcarFC @ June 25 2006,1:19)]…Hell, Bugweed proves my point perfectly. He has a bunch of different VFT types that are allowed to intermingle and fire out some great seeds that have tons of genetic differences.
I think if you look at human genetics, you’ll find that the statement “VFT-A has the same genes as VFT-B so they will make weaker offspring and eventually die out" can be proven true. For example it is illegal in many countries to have kids from a close relative such as a sister/brother, mother/father and first cousins. In other words, incest (inbreeding) is forbidden in many societies. Not only for moral reasons but for genetic reasons as well. The offspring of such unions often have mental and/or physical disabilities. This is as true for plants as it is for animals. By breeding a plant with itself or a clone, your gene pool is even smaller.[b said:Quote[/b] (CopcarFC @ June 25 2006,1:19)]No matter how you look at it the "VFT-A has the same genes as VFT-B so they will make weaker offspring and eventually die out" theory is 100% wrong because…
In large part because he started with hundreds of wild, seed grown plants, which gave his VFTs more genetic diversity to start with. Remember he said:[b said:Quote[/b] ]…There are far more than "one" genetic stamp on what is in your yard/greenhouse/bog. Hell, Bugweed proves my point perfectly. He has a bunch of different VFT types that are allowed to intermingle and fire out some great seeds that have tons of genetic differences.
If they are wild collected they could only have come from seed which would have been produced by pollen from any of several hundred flowers in the area around the plant. Our "store bought" plants only have the genetic diversity found in the few plants and seeds cloned by the CP industry and don't hold a candle to that of Bugweed's plants let alone that of the plants still in the wild. No matter how you slice, it the genetic diversity of cultivated plants is limited to only a few plants and some of the varieties that have been grown. When you consider that many varieties are grown not for any improvement to a plants hardiness or adaptability, but for its appeal to the human eye, the plants left that represent a typical healthy, hardy VFT becomes even more limited. Especially when you consider that inbreeding is used to get the characteristic of many cultivars, your gene pool is even shallower than it at first appears.[b said:Quote[/b] (Bugweed @ June 24 2006,8:23)]The biggest bulk of my VFT's were wild collected. By the Carolina Biological Supply in North Carolina. Then, they had a permit to do so for scientific reasons. I got a lot of mine from them. Plus, a lot of nurseries sold them, before tissue culture for $0.69 cents a pot with three banded VFT's, full grown. I bought a ton of VFT's from those sources......
First sentence: No, they were produced from either tissue culture of a few seeds or from a cuttings from one plant. They are still clones. Lots of plants and a shallow gene pool. As for the second sentence, of course they are! You are mixing the genes of two genetically different plants. Unless the Wal Mart plant is a clone of the plant from Bugweed.[b said:Quote[/b] ]CopcarFC buys a VFT from Wallmart.
He brings it home and sits it next to his unknown VFT from Bugweed.
They both flower and make seed.
You see the Wallmart VFT was reproduced by the thousands from one plant. But Bugweeds VFT is not, so when they mix the seeds are just as strong as they would have been in the wild.
That is your opinion of course, but I think they should be protected because they are unique. There is nothing else like them. Similar yes, but not like them. They fill a niche in the ecosystem and serve some use in it or they would have disappeared long before man started usurping their habitat for his own.[b said:Quote[/b] (CopcarFC @ June 25 2006,1:19)]I don't think VFT's hold any value to the ecosystem. But Sarra's, Ping's, and Nep's are so widespread that they must hold some value to the environment so they should be protected.