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Thread: The upcoming election

  1. #17
    Capslock's Avatar
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    Outsider, you may want to consider that you proposed that JLAP is not fit for parenthood, and shouldn't enjoy the legal and financial benefits of marriage. JLAP has not proposed that you are not fit for parenthood or shouldn't have those things. So it isn't really just "opposite opinions" on something.

    Imagine if you had posted what you said, but instead of gay people, it was Jews. Or black people. There were times in our VERY recent past where those actually were widely held positions. But it seems absurd now to say them. Well, for a gay person like JLAP, it's exactly like that today.

    I respect the right to differing opinions, but when they are openly advocating discrimination against the poster who is right here, you can't expect it to be received well.

    Capslock
    Malo Periculosam Libertatem Quam Quietum Servitium

    My photos are copyright-free and public domain

  2. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]If I interacted with you in real life I would treat you the same way I would treat anyone else, with compassion.
    Unless those interactions included such basic rights as being able to inherit property, not to be forced to testify against a spouse, not to be evicted from one's home for mere orientation, and a plethora of other examples numbering in excess of 1000.

    To claim compassion while at the same time supporting laws treating others as second-class citizens is hypocracy, period. If I'm polite and friendly to you, but work to remove your basic human rights, can you claim my behavior is compassionate? No, no more compassionate than the used-car salesman who smiles and jokes with you as you sign the lease on a car with a transmission made of tinkertoys.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]When you posted your opinions, I could have easily jumped on it and made a scene like you did. Instead I respected your post and posted my opinion/views and what did you do? You jumped all over me because my view is opposite yours. Why can't both views be posted? Why is it OK for you to post your perspective but as soon as I post mine I'm a hypocrite, blind person with no common sense? I'm willing to see both perspectives, maybe you are the blind one?
    Our opinions do not materially harm you or infringe upon your rights in any way. In contrast, your opinions actively seek to prevent equality and deny people rights based on nothing more than your views of morality.

    Let me give you an insight: a while back, my city (Cincinnati) had a portion in it's city charter, put there by people like you, which made it legal for me to be evicted from my apartment simply because my sexuality. I could be denied loans, hotel lodging, anything. And when this lovely display of "compassion" came up for referrendum, I found myself watching an ad, sponsored by people like you, which said, in as many words, that I do not deserve the same rights as you.

    I want you to look me in the metaphorical eye and tell me what aspect of the compasion and tolerance Jesus preached is involved in throwing me out of my home because of who I am.

    I'll make it even simpler: Tell me why, in an ostensibly free country, I should be forced to live by *your* moral rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]So they actually found the cause of homosexuality? That's news to me!
    Logical fallacy: strawman. We have evidence that there are genetic factors at work (through heritability studies), and we have evidence that other factors (number of older brothers) also affect sexual orientation. However, human behavior is more complex than that of Drosophilia, and the large-scale genomic evaluations necessary to determine the underlying causes have only recently become technologically possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]How do you feel about homosexuals who find Jesus Christ and then turn heterosexual? How did they change their genetics?
    Factually incorrect: Numerous studies have shown that the reversion rate of those who claim to have "become straight" over long time periods is 100%. You know Exodus International, the leader among such "ex-gay" groups? The founder is currently living in Canada - with his husband.

    Every properly performed study done on the phenomenon you describe reveals that the individuals have not changed their orientation, merely supressed it, going "back into the closet", as it were. The psychological damage incurred in such instances can be significant.


    If you want a serious debate on this, I'm all for it, but do me a favor and actually research the facts. I've grown bored to repeating the same refutations for the same ridiculous anti-gay propaganda over and over again, as I have so far in this thread.

    Mokele
    \"With malleus aforethought, mammals got an earful of their ancestor's jaw.\"
    --J. Burns, on the evolution of auditory ossicles.

  3. #19
    Outsiders71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    Factually incorrect. The Christian church performed gay marriages as a matter of course until the 11th century. Numerous other cultures and religions also have no such rules
    References please? If you want to get factual these "Christian" churches were not Christian but one of the many cults that branched off Christianity. Infact there's still a branch today in the U.S. that marries gays. Any church that marries gays and calls themselves "Christian" is not a Christian Church because it goes against the Bible. It's a counter-feit.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    If it's a Godly institution, it should not be part of US civil law. The US is home to many people, of any faiths, and attempting to make one faith's rules the law of the land is not only a clear violation of the 1st Ammendment, but antithetical to the very idea of freedom.
    When I said Godly institution, I was speaking from my perspective so excuse that. However the definition of marriage is 1 man and 1 woman. Nowhere in the definition does it say 2 men or 2 women. Once again homosexuality is not equivalent to heterosexuality and never will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    Once again, factually inaccurate. All evidence points to innate orientation determined by a mix of environmental and genetic factors long before puberty, possibly entirely in utero.
    Actually this is controversial, the origins of homosexuality is not as clear cut as you'd like to make it sound. There is no concrete "genetic" answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    And the broken, worthless foster system that bounces kids from home to home with no semblance of stability or family is somehow better?
    Have you read the studies on this? Apparently not. The best environment for a child that is growing up is to have 2 parents, 1 of each sex. If you truely believe in what you stated that homosexuality is caused by genetics, what is the child to do if he's not genetically homosexual? The problems the child would face are obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    Define "normal"? Statistically, it is not the majority, instead comprising roughly 5-6% of the populace according to the most effective research done. However, frequency of occurence does not denote moral or value judgement.
    As in socially, historically, and culturaly normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    You are aware that the US economy is now so completely globalized that a dip in the Nikei can affect the Dow within hours, right? And that a large part of any international relationship, trade or otherwise, is diplomacy, right?

    Like it or not, for better or worse, we are part of the global community. Who you piss off today might impose restrictive tarrifs on imports from us tommorrow, cutting trade and costing thousands of jobs.
    Obviously we will appease when it is in our best interest. However our job should not be pleasing the world and thankfully we aren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    Yeah, they're really suffering with their free healthcare, excellent public education, and diplomacy.
    Nothing is free. Trust me they pay for that health care, as do the Canadians. Excellent public education... It is apparent you have no idea what your talking about ::shrug::.
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

  4. #20
    Outsiders71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Capslock @ Oct. 25 2006,10:31)]Outsider, you may want to consider that you proposed that JLAP is not fit for parenthood, and shouldn't enjoy the legal and financial benefits of marriage. JLAP has not proposed that you are not fit for parenthood or shouldn't have those things. So it isn't really just "opposite opinions" on something.

    Imagine if you had posted what you said, but instead of gay people, it was Jews. Or black people. There were times in our VERY recent past where those actually were widely held positions. But it seems absurd now to say them. Well, for a gay person like JLAP, it's exactly like that today.

    I respect the right to differing opinions, but when they are openly advocating discrimination against the poster who is right here, you can't expect it to be received well.

    Capslock
    Please read my last response. There's just reasons for my beliefs and they aren't discrimminatory.
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

  5. #21
    Outsiders71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]

    To claim compassion while at the same time supporting laws treating others as second-class citizens is hypocracy, period. If I'm polite and friendly to you, but work to remove your basic human rights, can you claim my behavior is compassionate? No, no more compassionate than the used-car salesman who smiles and jokes with you as you sign the lease on a car with a transmission made of tinkertoys.
    I don't have the time right to reply to everything you said but right now I will give you an example and maybe you can see what I'm saying.

    If a person thinks it's ok to murder someone and actually does murder someone, I can have compassion for the murderer. Just because I have compassion and forgiveness for the murderer doesn't mean that I agree with what he did or his beliefs of murdering.

    If you would like to further the debate please reference to your information, especially your stats. I'm sure you didn't research all this work yourself so give credit the ones you stole it from.
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

  6. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]However the definition of marriage is 1 man and 1 woman. Nowhere in the definition does it say 2 men or 2 women. Once again homosexuality is not equivalent to heterosexuality and never will be.
    Which definiton? Yours? Why should we use yours?

    Let's use the *REAL* american definition, which has a 40,000 year tradition of recognizing same sex marriages. After all, the Native Americans were here first.

    Or maybe the traditions of any number of cultures, past and present, in which homosexuality has been widely accepted and given marriage rights?

    *Your* definition is not the only one. Give me one good reason why I should be *forced* to live by it.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Actually this is controversial, the origins of homosexuality is not as clear cut as you'd like to make it sound. There is no concrete "genetic" answer.
    The research on origins is absolutely clear it is not a choice. Find me one paper which claims it is: peer-reviewed scientific journal articles only.

    The evidence so far indicates that there *is* a genetic component, as proven by twin studies and familial histories. However, there is also evidence for environmental causes, such as birth order. There is, however, no evidence of any kind that it is chosen.

    I've read the scientific literature on this subject (meaning the origianl, peer-review publications in scientific journals). Have you?

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Have you read the studies on this? Apparently not. The best environment for a child that is growing up is to have 2 parents, 1 of each sex. If you truely believe in what you stated that homosexuality is caused by genetics, what is the child to do if he's not genetically homosexual? The problems the child would face are obvious.
    Did you even read my post? Apparently not.

    The issue is not which parenting system is optimal compared to the other. There are more kids in the foster system than are being adopted, way more. To compare two-parent versus one-parent versus gay-parents ignores the obvious and more important part: Some parents, *any* parents, are better than *no* parents.

    Oh, and speaking of studies, studies have also conclusively shown that children raised by gay parents, both adopted and genetic children, have no more problems than normal kids, and have no abormal sexuality issues. Adopted ones even have no greater incidence of homosexuality than the population as a whole, effectively refuting the claim that gay parents will make the kids gay.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]As in socially, historically, and culturaly normal.
    In numerous cultures and societies throughout history, homosexuality has been accepted and even endorsed in various forms and ways. As I noted, the Christian church even performed gay marriage ceremonies until the 11th century. And let's not forget such trivial societies as Athens, the source of all modern civilization, birthplace of democracy, and Rome, the most powerful and advanced civilization of its time. Or the Native Americans and Native Australians.

    So, once again, why should we be force to live by your norms? Aren't we free?

    Oh, and on top of it all: tradition doesn't make something right. Slavery has a long and great tradition, but we don't claim that as "normal".

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Excellent public education... It is apparent you have no idea what your talking about
    More than you do. I've been through the pathetic excuse for the American public education system, and taught the end-results of it. I've also got a darn good idea of the UK system from my fiancee.

    You want to compare, how's this: You know calculus, that "really hard" math course most US high school students never take, which is not required at all for graduation? In the UK, it's taught at age 16, is standard in *all* schools, and *is* required.

    Let's not get into the fact that we're the only civilized country in the world whose schools ignore the unifying theory of an entire science just to appease the uneducated few who reject it.

    Mokele
    \"With malleus aforethought, mammals got an earful of their ancestor's jaw.\"
    --J. Burns, on the evolution of auditory ossicles.

  7. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]If a person thinks it's ok to murder someone and actually does murder someone, I can have compassion for the murderer. Just because I have compassion and forgiveness for the murderer doesn't mean that I agree with what he did or his beliefs of murdering.
    Are you actually comparing homosexuality to MURDER?

    Your analogy is deeply flawed, and effectively worthless. This is not about understanding someone in spite of a crime, it's about you smiling while stabbing them in the back for no crime other than being different from you.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]If you would like to further the debate please reference to your information, especially your stats. I'm sure you didn't research all this work yourself so give credit the ones you stole it from.
    Which do you require? Give me a list, and I'll give you the citations.

    Similarly, I insist that if you make claim, you give me a reference for it. Scientific peer-reviewed journal articles only, top-tier journals preferred. Everything else is worthless.

    Mokele
    \"With malleus aforethought, mammals got an earful of their ancestor's jaw.\"
    --J. Burns, on the evolution of auditory ossicles.

  8. #24

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    Here's my first citation:

    "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, nor prohibiting free exercise thereof;"

    Now, tell me how forcing everyone in the nation to live by your religion's rules is *not* a violation of the establishment clause.

    Mokele
    \"With malleus aforethought, mammals got an earful of their ancestor's jaw.\"
    --J. Burns, on the evolution of auditory ossicles.

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