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Thread: The upcoming election

  1. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]His views are based on what he believes is best for people and society. Whether that should be translated into legislature is his own choice as well as yours; every voice is heard equally at the polls.
    Yes, and the first ammendment and courts exist to ensure that the majority cannot simply impose their will on the minority, trampling their rights.

    Outsider does NOT have a right to take away the civil rights of those he disagrees with. Read the bill of rights. "Equal protection under the law" is guaranteed. Not "Equal protection for those who meet our moral standards."

    The bill of rights exists to protect us from people like him.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]It has always been those on moral high ground that keep society from degrading into anarchy. That's one of history's simple secrets.
    Yep, and here me and JLAP are, ensuring that your backwards dreams of theocracy don't plunge our society into a new Dark Ages.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]You can't argue that anything written in the Bible is bad for you. So whether you accept God love or no, his commandments still stand flawless.
    Eat any seafood lately? Work any weekends? Wear clothing of 2 different types of fabrics? You have? Oh, well, sorry, you've failed to live by your god's rules, and are doomed to hell.

    Seriously, read that book. The same book which condemns homosexuality condemns all of the things I listed above, and many, many more.

    So, I guess I need to start living my life by God's rules. Know where I can buy some slaves? I know, they're hard to come by these days, but the Bible is *very* clear about the moral acceptability of human slavery, even going so far as to set prices and appropriate barters.

    Do you have any idea how sad it is that an atheist knows more about your own faith than you do?

    Next thing, you'll claim the King James Bible is infallible, in spite of the fact that there are passages *missing*. Not mis-translated, fused with other passages, *gone*, totally removed. Some infallibility, huh?

    I'm bored by this, so let's play a new game:

    My fiancee and I are both atheists, but have a very strong fondness for a particular religion whose overall symbolism speaks deeply to us. We're especially keen on one of the primary deities of this system, with my fiancee having gone so far as to pray to this deity in a time of need.

    So, given that there is *NO* way to tell, which faith is the correct one, and *NO* evidence for any one god over another, why should you not be forced to live by OUR moral code?

    Would it be right of a country in which this tradition of this faith predominated to prevent Christians from marrying?

    Would it be right if the majority here were of a persuasion like ours to force you to worship the way we do?

    If not, why is it right for you to do the same to others? Because you have the "right" God? That's the stuff holy wars are made of. Besides, our deity would win; more arms, for a start.

    Mokele
    \"With malleus aforethought, mammals got an earful of their ancestor's jaw.\"
    --J. Burns, on the evolution of auditory ossicles.

  2. #58
    Cardiac Nurse JB_OrchidGuy's Avatar
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    Ahhh All mighty Buddha! I admit I don;t know much about Buddhism, but from what I have been expose to by my economics teacher, he has a great love for Tialand and teaches there every summer, it is a truely peacful and tolerent religion.

    Now to the discusion at hand. Christians are blind to the facts of their own religion. Many hold blind faith to whatever the fanatical preacher tells them and runs with it. My wife and I decided we were going to try to start going to church. So we told her cousin and we joined them at church one sunday. After listening to the preacher we never went back. He was AWFUL. He told us a story about how there was a fella in the congragation of a nother church he used to preach at that drove a budweiser truck for a living. He ended up playing for the church softball team and drive the truck to practice one evening. He then goes on about how they shunned him for driving a beer truck so much that he changed jobs. The preacher went on about how he was doing a bad thing driving that beer truck and just talking down about his occupation. Now after that day I had the question of why would they shun him for driving a beer truck when Jesus himself suposedly turned water into wine? He never said alcohol was bad. He just said over consumption was. You know gluttony(sp). So I spoke with a religious friend of mine at work and she even made the comment he was wrong. Luckiy she is one of those religous folks that can see your point fo view and give doo explinations to why she disagrees with it, but she never attacks. I love debating wiht her over things.

    Many Christians also do not realize that many of the passages in their bible were changed by the Catholic preists many many decades ago. I cannot remember the date. They turned Mary Magdolin into a nice gal, and made the birth of Jesus that of imaculate conception. The bible was written by MAN! The Gospal of so and so. These were books written by people as they saw their religion. Also why is there only 4 gospels? There were many other gospels left out. A preist chose the 4 he wanted in the bible. Since Christianity was shunned in its early existance each group of christians had their own gospel. It wasn't till it was all consolidated that they put together the bible. Why is it that the gospel of judah was dismissed and even tried to be destroyed? Did it say something the church did not want to get out? The church is more underhanded than many people want to believe. The people in the chatholic church(the high echilons like the cardinals and the pope) are the best at putting on a public show and then doing some underhanded things in secret. This doesn;t mean that all catholics are bad, and believe me it is not isolated with just catholics either. I believe it is with all religion period. Religion is the oldest form of mind control. Brainwashing at its finest. Much of this info comes from the National Geografic documentory "The gospel of Judah". Some of it is from other things I have read.

    Now for my opinion on religion. They were all cults in the begining. There are many that have grown in popularity teken off. This is all the major religions I am talking about here. We stomp out all the fledgling cults into becoming a religion by demonising them as cults. When in actuality they were cults to begin with. Now does this mean because I say every religion was at one point a cult I think they are all bad? Not at all. From what I know about Buddhism and Hinduism they are both peiceful religions and get along with everyone. This comes back to another story my Econ proffessor told us. He said he was over there teaching ( he was showing slides the last day of his trips) and a school had just Irrected a statue of the Hindu god of technology. Mind you the details are fuzzy, but the jist of it was the Statue was of a Hindu God at a school that was Buddhist, and both the Buddhist and Hindu preists collaborated on a time and both blessed the statue. And according to his story it wasn't a big deal for either one of them. Mokele are you or your fiance firmiliar with any wars either of these two religions were involved in over religious beliefs?

    The thing is there is suposed to be a seperation of chuch and state. Yet we are still getting reliously influenced legislation passing in office. It is my believe that morality cannot be dictated, and not everyones morality is not the same. The main problem is we have a country that tries to mind everyone elses business instead of minding their own. What I do inside the privacy of my own home is my buisiness. If I choose to have sex in a position other than the missionary position then I should be allowed to, but you know that is illegal to do in the state of GA? Of course it is not enforced, but it is still on the books. I do not feel the government should descriminate between Homo and heterosexuals. They should be able to get married and share the same rights. Face it there is rights gained by being "married" that single people do not get. There are also some drawback depending on the person your with, but thats something different. LOL Companies do not have to pay death benefits to a partner or whatnot. Some clubs chrge more for two singles than a married couple. The descrimination is endless!! I am not gay and yet I am not blind to that fact. People put on blinders when things do not dirrectly affect them, and that is sad.

    I am personaly TIRED of morality being dictated to me. I cannot go smoke my good because someone says it is bad. I can't grow a plant because it is moraly wrong. Clint cannot love the person he wants to love because it is "moraly" wrong. That is BS all around. As long as what someone does, does not affect another human being dirrectly causeing bodily harm then screw what you think it shouldn't be mandated as bad. I don't think poligomy is bad, and if I had a woman that would go along with it why would I turn it down? Besides the fact that it is illegal. A law like that was made by a guy who could barely hold on to one woman so why would he want another man to have two or three? Stupid crap like that.

    Many people just need to stop thinking they are the center of the universe and realize there are other ways to look at things, and there are more than one way to do something.
    JB
    Friend me on facebook with JB_orchidguy@yahoo.com.
    Growlist Updated 05/08/13

  3. #59
    herenorthere's Avatar
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    People are coming at this from different political orientations, but a common theme is a desire for a less intrusive government. Pretty much everyone agrees government has to say, "no" to people sometimes, but we disagree as to when that is.

    In my opinion, it would be right for government to tell a landowner he can't drain S. alabamensis habitat to raise cattle, but it's wrong for government to tell two gay men they can't marry. I can't point at any abstract theory that says why one is good and the other isn't - I just think the first is a worthwhile trampling of someone's rights and the second isn't. If someone's opposed to gay marriage, they should make sure they marry someone of the opposite sex and, at that point, should stop worrying about it.

    As to how much government intrusion we should accept to prevent terrorism, I believe it should be very little. We have no trouble accepting the loss of 40,000+ Americans to traffic accidents every year. With no outcry for three strikes and you're out speeding tickets or zero tolerance alcohol laws. Other nations have survived terrorism with much of their dignity intact. Americans should be able to do the same.

    And don't believe the hype about Eastern religions being tolerant and peaceful. They certainly can be, just like Christians, Muslims and Jews can be, but the Buddhist government of Sri Lanka oppressed the Hindu & Muslim Tamil minority and Shinto Japanese committed a lot of atrocities in WW II. Blood is shed whenever religion takes hold of government, no matter how tolerant they might appear.
    Bruce in CT

    Madness is something rare in individuals but in groups, parties, peoples, ages it is the rule. Friedrich Nietzsche

  4. #60
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    Great post josh.

    Bruce, You said it yourself. the Buddhist GOVERNMENT.

    Lets see here. Look at what happens when the government isn't secular:

    The Shinto government in WWII
    The Muslim government in several countries RIGHT NOW!
    The Buddhist government in sri lanka
    The Christian government in england during the crusades
    The Christian government in spain during the inquisition
    The Christian government in america several hundred years ago. Look at the "witch" burnings.

    Do we see a pattern here? all those religions are fine with me by themselves, but once they infest the government they go crazy.

  5. #61

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    Thanks Clint, I appreciate it. And you make a good point there. I don't know what it's like to be in you're shoes, but I'll try to answer anyway. Mankind was created with free will. We had the choice either to live in perfect love and communion with God, or to serve our own passions and control our own world. And we're stupid, so we chose the latter. That's when physical and spiritual disease entered the world. We've all inherited the need to serve ourselves. The only way to escape either physical or spiritual imperfections is throught Christ's healing and forgiveness. And that only comes through accepting him. That's the one thing I can't help you with. Does that all make sense?

    Mokele, sorry to dissapoint, but I'm not here to argue opinions. And I'm not going to be beating anybody up at the polls. I'll be voting for what I think is best for society. I'm aware this will have an affect on your life, but its always a two-way road.

    Now about the Biblical law thing. I'm aware Old Testament law seems arbitrary, but it's actually pretty simple. Some laws, including most food regulations, were for purely practical reasons. And for the record, only fish without fins and scales were banned. Other laws were designed to help the Israelites remain faithful to God. The the two fiber thing, for example, was actually a ban on a certain pagan practice of the day. Most of the laws were simply an effort to bring Israelite society closer to perfection. The standards for the treatment of women and slaves were revolutionary in their day. God didn't just sit there and come up with stupid arbitrary laws to entertain himself. Had he required any more of his people, he would have had a rebellion on his hands. The rules just seem backwards because society has progressed in these 3000 years since they were written. When Christ came, God made a new covenant with us. Now, the only law is absolute perfection. Christ is our high priest before God. We don't have to make any animal sacrifices. All we have to do is to accept Jesus and his death to bail out us out of he11. And then we get to be perfect again and live forever. Again, it's only if you want it.

    Josh, I'm not sure about everybody's morality being the same, but perfection is the same the world around, and you're responsible for wanting it or not wanting it. As Bruce said, we have to draw a line somewhere. And there's always some folks who want higher standards and some want lower standards. Just like Mosaic law did for Israelites, we need law that's going to improve society. Practically, it needs to be at a level that everybody can follow it if they want to.

    The pattern I see with Shinto, Bhuddist, Muslim, and Christian beliefs is that the societies that have adopted them have lasted for centuries.

    peace,
    Peter
    the cellist

  6. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Ahhh All mighty Buddha!
    Actually, not quite: our favorites (though we don't actually *believe*) are from the Hindu Pantheon: Shiva the Destroyer and his consort, Kali, goddess of death. The Trimurti's symbolism is my favorite of all faiths: 3 aspects of the divine all, corresponding to creation, preservation and destruction, eternally interdependent, each necessary for the others.

    Also, Buddha isn't actually a deity, merely a Bodhisatva (Enlightened Being).

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I admit I don;t know much about Buddhism, but from what I have been expose to by my economics teacher, he has a great love for Tialand and teaches there every summer, it is a truely peacful and tolerent religion.
    Eh, it's not as wonderful as it often seems to Westerners. For instance, it's prone to the same sexism as infests Western faiths: Buddha claimed that women could not become enlightened, and the lowliest Buddhist monk outranks the highest Buddhist nun.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Mokele are you or your fiance firmiliar with any wars either of these two religions were involved in over religious beliefs?
    I'll ask her, but I'm fairly sure she's mentioned ones before. Eastern religions are her primary focus.

    Mokele
    \"With malleus aforethought, mammals got an earful of their ancestor's jaw.\"
    --J. Burns, on the evolution of auditory ossicles.

  7. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Mankind was created with free will. We had the choice either to live in perfect love and communion with God, or to serve our own passions and control our own world. And we're stupid, so we chose the latter. That's when physical and spiritual disease entered the world. We've all inherited the need to serve ourselves. The only way to escape either physical or spiritual imperfections is throught Christ's healing and forgiveness. And that only comes through accepting him. That's the one thing I can't help you with. Does that all make sense?
    As a myth of our origins, yes, but one that has no actual bearing on reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ] I'll be voting for what I think is best for society. I'm aware this will have an affect on your life, but its always a two-way road.
    So you agree that it would be morally acceptable for the majority to *force* you to worship my favorite god, if they voted that way?

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]The standards for the treatment of women and slaves were revolutionary in their day. God didn't just sit there and come up with stupid arbitrary laws to entertain himself. Had he required any more of his people, he would have had a rebellion on his hands.
    So God is afraid of his own people? Some omnipotence, heh.

    If these are supposed to be The Rules, why make them culturally relative?

    And, if that is the case, what justification do we have for not proclaiming the rules about homosexuality to be obsolete relics? We've done with the rules on women and slavery. What's to say that *this* isn't the turning point where our culture no longer needs the rules of homosexuality?

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]As Bruce said, we have to draw a line somewhere. And there's always some folks who want higher standards and some want lower standards. Just like Mosaic law did for Israelites, we need law that's going to improve society. Practically, it needs to be at a level that everybody can follow it if they want to.
    So if it needs to be something everyone can follow if they want to, why are you trying to FORCE people to live by your rules?

    And what makes you think your 'line' is any better than mine. Mine is true to the tradition of freedom this country was founded on, which is definitely not true for yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]The pattern I see with Shinto, Bhuddist, Muslim, and Christian beliefs is that the societies that have adopted them have lasted for centuries.
    Don't forget the Egyptians, Romans, Hindus, Native American tribes, Polynesians, ancient Celts, Vikings, Chinese and others.

    Your own arguement is based on each being equally valid, so why should yours be treated as 'special'?

    Mokele
    \"With malleus aforethought, mammals got an earful of their ancestor's jaw.\"
    --J. Burns, on the evolution of auditory ossicles.

  8. #64
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    I do understand what you are saying about forgiveness and all that. I used to be REALLY into christianity. I was saved and all that. I guess according to the majority of christians i'm still saved. I was taught "once saved always saved" so I guess we'll find out what happens when I die. Based on personal, non drug-induced metaphysical experiences (astral projection) I do believe in an after-existance. I accepted christ out of fear of hell, then I really honestly loved him. then I started thinking for myself and realized that it's very far-fetched and I don't agree that most of the sins are really sinful. It's cool that you believe that and all but it's not for me. You are a real christian unlike *some* people. I am sorry, however, that you will vote republican. i'm also sorry you think I have lower standards. If I misinterpreted that, then i'm sorry. I think treating everyone equally is better for society, but that's just me.

    If you believe in equality, but don't believe in gay marriage, you are a hypocrite. That's a fact and it's not directed at anyone in particular.


    As far as the ban on pagan practices, it's sad that the isrealites had religious intolerance even back then. Few people know that most of the modern christian holidays are based on pagen holidays.

    And since rubra is so nice (yes I do mean that lol), i'll stick up for him. He really isn't forcing his morality on us, but voting. This is a democracy. Atleast MA and NJ allow gay marriage. He is right, it is a two-way road and if you don't like it, VOTE! I'm excited because i'll be able to vote for the first time in 08.


    I find it interesting how the OT god is really a jerk for lack of a better word, and the NT god is nice. In the OT he pretty much killed everyone. And it pisses me off how Jesus is portrayed as white. He is ISREALI!

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