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The upcoming election

  • #61
Thanks Clint, I appreciate it. And you make a good point there. I don't know what it's like to be in you're shoes, but I'll try to answer anyway. Mankind was created with free will. We had the choice either to live in perfect love and communion with God, or to serve our own passions and control our own world. And we're stupid, so we chose the latter. That's when physical and spiritual disease entered the world. We've all inherited the need to serve ourselves. The only way to escape either physical or spiritual imperfections is throught Christ's healing and forgiveness. And that only comes through accepting him. That's the one thing I can't help you with. Does that all make sense?

Mokele, sorry to dissapoint, but I'm not here to argue opinions. And I'm not going to be beating anybody up at the polls. I'll be voting for what I think is best for society. I'm aware this will have an affect on your life, but its always a two-way road.

Now about the Biblical law thing. I'm aware Old Testament law seems arbitrary, but it's actually pretty simple. Some laws, including most food regulations, were for purely practical reasons. And for the record, only fish without fins and scales were banned. Other laws were designed to help the Israelites remain faithful to God. The the two fiber thing, for example, was actually a ban on a certain pagan practice of the day. Most of the laws were simply an effort to bring Israelite society closer to perfection. The standards for the treatment of women and slaves were revolutionary in their day. God didn't just sit there and come up with stupid arbitrary laws to entertain himself. Had he required any more of his people, he would have had a rebellion on his hands. The rules just seem backwards because society has progressed in these 3000 years since they were written. When Christ came, God made a new covenant with us. Now, the only law is absolute perfection. Christ is our high priest before God. We don't have to make any animal sacrifices. All we have to do is to accept Jesus and his death to bail out us out of he11. And then we get to be perfect again and live forever. Again, it's only if you want it.

Josh, I'm not sure about everybody's morality being the same, but perfection is the same the world around, and you're responsible for wanting it or not wanting it. As Bruce said, we have to draw a line somewhere. And there's always some folks who want higher standards and some want lower standards. Just like Mosaic law did for Israelites, we need law that's going to improve society. Practically, it needs to be at a level that everybody can follow it if they want to.

The pattern I see with Shinto, Bhuddist, Muslim, and Christian beliefs is that the societies that have adopted them have lasted for centuries.

peace,
Peter
 
  • #62
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Ahhh All mighty Buddha!

Actually, not quite: our favorites (though we don't actually *believe*) are from the Hindu Pantheon: Shiva the Destroyer and his consort, Kali, goddess of death. The Trimurti's symbolism is my favorite of all faiths: 3 aspects of the divine all, corresponding to creation, preservation and destruction, eternally interdependent, each necessary for the others.

Also, Buddha isn't actually a deity, merely a Bodhisatva (Enlightened Being).

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I admit I don;t know much about Buddhism, but from what I have been expose to by my economics teacher, he has a great love for Tialand and teaches there every summer, it is a truely peacful and tolerent religion.

Eh, it's not as wonderful as it often seems to Westerners. For instance, it's prone to the same sexism as infests Western faiths: Buddha claimed that women could not become enlightened, and the lowliest Buddhist monk outranks the highest Buddhist nun.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Mokele are you or your fiance firmiliar with any wars either of these two religions were involved in over religious beliefs?

I'll ask her, but I'm fairly sure she's mentioned ones before. Eastern religions are her primary focus.

Mokele
 
  • #63
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Mankind was created with free will. We had the choice either to live in perfect love and communion with God, or to serve our own passions and control our own world. And we're stupid, so we chose the latter. That's when physical and spiritual disease entered the world. We've all inherited the need to serve ourselves. The only way to escape either physical or spiritual imperfections is throught Christ's healing and forgiveness. And that only comes through accepting him. That's the one thing I can't help you with. Does that all make sense?

As a myth of our origins, yes, but one that has no actual bearing on reality.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] I'll be voting for what I think is best for society. I'm aware this will have an affect on your life, but its always a two-way road.

So you agree that it would be morally acceptable for the majority to *force* you to worship my favorite god, if they voted that way?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The standards for the treatment of women and slaves were revolutionary in their day. God didn't just sit there and come up with stupid arbitrary laws to entertain himself. Had he required any more of his people, he would have had a rebellion on his hands.

So God is afraid of his own people? Some omnipotence, heh.

If these are supposed to be The Rules, why make them culturally relative?

And, if that is the case, what justification do we have for not proclaiming the rules about homosexuality to be obsolete relics? We've done with the rules on women and slavery. What's to say that *this* isn't the turning point where our culture no longer needs the rules of homosexuality?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]As Bruce said, we have to draw a line somewhere. And there's always some folks who want higher standards and some want lower standards. Just like Mosaic law did for Israelites, we need law that's going to improve society. Practically, it needs to be at a level that everybody can follow it if they want to.

So if it needs to be something everyone can follow if they want to, why are you trying to FORCE people to live by your rules?

And what makes you think your 'line' is any better than mine. Mine is true to the tradition of freedom this country was founded on, which is definitely not true for yours.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The pattern I see with Shinto, Bhuddist, Muslim, and Christian beliefs is that the societies that have adopted them have lasted for centuries.

Don't forget the Egyptians, Romans, Hindus, Native American tribes, Polynesians, ancient Celts, Vikings, Chinese and others.

Your own arguement is based on each being equally valid, so why should yours be treated as 'special'?

Mokele
 
  • #64
I do understand what you are saying about forgiveness and all that. I used to be REALLY into christianity. I was saved and all that. I guess according to the majority of christians i'm still saved. I was taught "once saved always saved" so I guess we'll find out what happens when I die. Based on personal, non drug-induced metaphysical experiences (astral projection) I do believe in an after-existance. I accepted christ out of fear of hell, then I really honestly loved him. then I started thinking for myself and realized that it's very far-fetched and I don't agree that most of the sins are really sinful. It's cool that you believe that and all but it's not for me. You are a real christian unlike *some* people. I am sorry, however, that you will vote republican. i'm also sorry you think I have lower standards. If I misinterpreted that, then i'm sorry. I think treating everyone equally is better for society, but that's just me.

If you believe in equality, but don't believe in gay marriage, you are a hypocrite. That's a fact and it's not directed at anyone in particular.


As far as the ban on pagan practices, it's sad that the isrealites had religious intolerance even back then. Few people know that most of the modern christian holidays are based on pagen holidays.

And since rubra is so nice (yes I do mean that lol), i'll stick up for him. He really isn't forcing his morality on us, but voting. This is a democracy. Atleast MA and NJ allow gay marriage. He is right, it is a two-way road and if you don't like it, VOTE! I'm excited because i'll be able to vote for the first time in 08.


I find it interesting how the OT god is really a jerk for lack of a better word, and the NT god is nice. In the OT he pretty much killed everyone. And it pisses me off how Jesus is portrayed as white. He is ISREALI!
 
  • #65
Alright now Clint. Don't bring the race card into this already heated debate!

Rubra you are still saying god or Jesus wrote the bible. They did not. Mark, Mathew, Luke and John were the only books written by people who supposedly lived when Jesus lived. The other books were written by people many hundreds of years later.

Also you have to define perfect. The perfect girl in my eye is not the same perfect girl in your eyes or man or whatever your attraction may be. So who gets to set the definition of perfect?

You say that spiritual and physical disease cam into the world when man decided to act on his free will. I am sorry that is BS. Man has always died, and there are fossils from creatures that lived BEFORE man. They too have always died. Man has never lived forever and the only way me might is through science. Religion is an antiquated way of thinking. Granted SOME of the things in religion are still good to live by, but the intolerance and discrimination parts need to be abolished. I am sick of people thinking there way is the only way of doing things. That is what drove me crazy about some of my math teachers. I used the rules of math and logic to complete problems one way, but the teacher wanted me to do them her way. I rebelled and continued to do it my way. The correlation here is that there is ALWAYS more than one way to skin a cat. We all are born and just here waiting to die. How we choose to get there is our business. I think it is time to write a new new testament to get all the religious nuts off the backs of some good people.

Psst Clint if we write a book and call it the bible The New New testament. Then they will believe it! LOL Just kidding with this one, but it holds some truth. The Bible was written by man and was translated from an ancient language that is not spoken anymore. Ancient Hebrew is not like Hebrew of today from my understanding. Plus you ALWAYS loose something in translation so who is to say things were not interjected or misinterpreted?

As far as Other religions being peaceful I guess that was a shot in the dark. LOL I told you I didn't know much about them. That is why I believe in science.
smile_n_32.gif
Even though it was science that created the Nuke. Dang we can't get away from death and destruction if we tried!
 
  • #66
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] So who gets to set the definition of perfect?

God, silly.



[b said:
Quote[/b] ] Psst Clint if we write a book and call it the bible The New New testament. Then they will believe it!

It's called the book of mormon. They do believe it, and apparently Utah is the holy land.

Jokes aside, Mormonism is a great example of a legitimate religion that started as a cult. IIRC, they killed the founder for blasphemy (Agian, look what the christians did)

Scientology is another example.... not really a good example but still an example. It's sort of in between a cult and a legit religion.
 
  • #67
Dude all religionstated as a cult with little followers. No one wants to admit it thoguh, but the signes are all there. Religion has not alway been and it is man made. People had to have something to believe in to explain the world when they did't know any better. That time has passed and it is sciences turn. We can explian the world now. We don;t have to rely on "because it is gods will" any more.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Quote
So who gets to set the definition of perfect?



God, silly.
Now which of the many gods from different religions is going to be the true meaning of perfect? Too many things left to interpretation. Just like the bible. I could read it and get one thing out of it and you could reading it and get another. It is all in how it is interpreted. There is suposedly a passage refuring to a dragon in the bible. There is loads of references to incest, yet that is shunned by the church. The book contradicts itself all over the place. I really need to sit down and read it just so I can better pick it apart. I just hope the thing doesn't burst into flames when I pick itup. LMAO
 
  • #68
Lmao. You'r a true atheist. I love what you just said lmao.

" I really need to sit down and read it just so I can better pick it apart."
 
  • #69
Well, dude. I truly believe it is written by man. It is filled with flaws, and I believe it was changed by the Catholic church to what it is today.

I had another atheist say that he has read it and it was a good story. Nothing more. LOL

I am not a proclaimed Atheist yet. I believe there maybe something, but I don't believe this man made thing we call religion is what was intended. I am sorry I have to have proof and not just blind faith. If there is a god he knows this about man and wouldn't hide himself behind symbolism and a corrupt religion. He would make his presence known to those that ask to see it. I have asked before. I just want proof a god exists. That doesn't mean I would become religious. Since I believe that tis religion is not what Jesus intended it to be. BTW I do believe Jesus existed, but I do not believe he was of immaculate conception. He was just a man that started this cult called Christianity. I also never said he was a bad man. For all I know he was a kind and compassionate like people say, but I also believe he was manipulative and coercive too. I think his crucifixion was setup by him a Judah. I believe Jesus asked Judah to betray him like he did. Then someone helped him off the cross for his "resurrection". People were gullible back in those days. What better way to get people to follow you than to fake your death and come back from the dead? Classic slight of hand mixed with gullibleness. I can hardly wait till they finish translating the Gospel of Judah. The one text the church searched out to destroy. Thank our stars that someone hid the one copy we have today. Although it is badly degraded from being kept in a safety deposit box for all those years.

I also do not believe this country has become what its founding fathers intended. They didn't intend for the government to be in every aspects of civilian life, yet it is getting that way. The government is getting to big for its own good.
 
  • #70
Then your agnostic like me. hurrah!

I was raised to believe in god (my parents are secular but they still believe in god) Religion was never around the house and we never went to church or anything, but still. In the back of my mind i'm like "dude what if?" But i'm still going to wallow in "sin". It's human nature to "sin". "sin" is what MAKES us human.

As far as those "miracles" jesus did, anything by david blane or chris angel trumps jesus any day of the week.

I always wondered if Judah was put up to do it. Someone had to do it.
 
  • #71
Ah, good old PFT! Just has that Z!NG in the air! *Takes deep breath* You smell that? Electricity!

Honestly though, up 'til now I haven't managed reading through posts upon posts on these subject matters without at least blurting out something horrendously stupid and/or offensive. I feel at ease since I am merely a spectator from across the pond now, and you folks have no idea how refreshing it is to hear the PEOPLES' voices.

"Is it more altruistic to worship
Or actually help fellow man?"
"The world could certainly use some miracles
Until then I'll put my faith in human beings" - snippets from a light-hearted song by NOFX.

Cheers all, keep it civil!
smile.gif

Amori
 
  • #72
-I started this thread and would like to recap what has been said about “hot button” issues in the upcoming election…MOST of you are saying that gay rights and religious beliefs are the reasons I should vote for a candidate.

-Very few of you seemed to be interested in the attributes that make a good president.

-At the risk of offending anyone…please do not bother to vote.

I was hoping for a lively and civil political debate, something along the line of JB OrchidGuy’s “Would you vote for Obama in 08”.

Where did I go wrong?
 
  • #73
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Lauderdale @ Oct. 29 2006,3:19)]Where did I go wrong?
You left the door open for religion to sneak in. This resulted in a debate, and religious debates can get so ugly so quickly.
 
  • #74
Woo! I think this has been lively!

"At the risk of offending anyone…please do not bother to vote."

lol, I love you for saying that.
 
  • #75
With fundamentalists trying to control our government, religion is definitely a serious political issue for everyone, pro and con. If I was homosexual or homophobic, furthermore, gay rights might be the hot button issue for me. The most important thing to me is ending this Neocon wet dream of the Imperial President.
 
  • #76
Yeah Lauderdale.  Your post started off correctly, but got side tracked when religion hit the stage.  To be honest I posted on where the thread was and not the original post.  
smile_l_32.gif
 I would actually need to go through and reread the issues you mentioned to give you a clear answer to the post that started this thread.  Although I may have gotten side tracked, The religious aspect of politicians does play a role in how some people vote.  I will be back later with a response that does the first post justice.
 
  • #77
Yeah, the thread went sort of crazy there. and off-topic.

Seriously looking at the current situation, the dominant issue is the war in Iraq. Many of us feel that our unprovoked attack was completely unrelated to the terrorist attacks on 9/11. None of the attackers were Iraqi, and Iraq had nothing to do with that effort. In fact, Iraq was a dictatorship, but a secular dictatorship often at odds with the fundamentalists. So for many of us, the attack was unwarranted, and seemed to be more the idea of a neocon cabal bent on securing oil rights and a permanent military presence in the middle east. Since our President told us lie after lie about the stockpiles of WMDs, and the imminent danger of a nuclear Iraq, many Americans were duped into supporting the effort. We all felt like something had to be done after 9/11, which is why almost nobody was upset about going into the training ground of the attackers, Afghanistan, and booting out the sympathetic government there. But Iraq? Where did that come from? And it's no trivial matter, with 3,000 American troops killed, with tens of thousands maimed, and hundreds of thousands of dead Iraq citizens. And worse, we all but abandoned Afghanistan, leaving OBL on the loose and the Taliban in resurgence. This amounts to the biggest foreign policy disaster of our lifetimes. Yet this administration is defiant, painting opposing voices as terrorist sympathizers who "hate America".

So, for me, the most important thing in the next election is to find a President with some moral integrity, with an understanding of world politics. Someone who will actually tell the truth, and trust in the American public to support the right things. We need someone who values the Bill of Rights instead of viewing it as an annoyance to circumvent. We need someone who cares about the American public, and puts real problems like the rising cost of health care and the declining state of public education above pandering issues like making sure gay people don't get to marry. We need someone who will make us proud to be Americans again, because for a lot of us, these are not the good ol' days.

Capslock
 
  • #78
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]MOST of you are saying that gay rights and religious beliefs are the reasons I should vote for a candidate.

Strawman. I don't recall anyone actually claiming it should be the primary or only issue, merely one that should not be ignored.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Very few of you seemed to be interested in the attributes that make a good president.

Why does that matter? No candidate will have any of them. In order to be an effective politician in the modern day and age, you must be nothing short of a ruthless, power-hungry lying sociopath willing to do anything it takes to get what you want. And that goes for *all* politicians.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]-At the risk of offending anyone…please do not bother to vote.

Why, because our priorities differ? I love how you assume that just because gay rights and religion has been the topic that derailed this thread, my views are confined to that and little else.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You left the door open for religion to sneak in. This resulted in a debate, and religious debates can get so ugly so quickly.

Precisely. I thought the original topic was a great idea, and I'd like to have a crack at that, but the thread was derailed by the need to correct the hate-speech spewing forth.

It's been a long time since I modded on an Ikonboard-run forum; is it possible to split threads, sectioning out certain posts and putting them in their own thread?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
So, for me, the most important thing in the next election is to find a President with some moral integrity, with an understanding of world politics. Someone who will actually tell the truth, and trust in the American public to support the right things. We need someone who values the Bill of Rights instead of viewing it as an annoyance to circumvent. We need someone who cares about the American public, and puts real problems like the rising cost of health care and the declining state of public education above pandering issues like making sure gay people don't get to marry

I agree, but I'm not hopeful that such a person will be in the running. Instead we'll elect another person who is, in effect, a high-functioning sociopath, after power for it's own ends, because that's all there is out there to vote for.

Mokele
 
  • #79
Mokele you make many good points.  There is really no good candidate to vote for lately.  That is why I like Obama at the momment, but even he does things I don't care for.  I wish I knew who else was going to eb on the ticket so I could start formulating my opinions on them and choose the lesser of two or three evils.

Oh and they should be able to split this thread. Most message boards have that ability if your a mod. I know all the boards I modded at I could do it and they were not even Ikonboards.
 
  • #80
Hey Guys, if there is a way to split the thread, I don't know what it is!

At any rate, Mokele, you are one jaded individual. Elequently spoken, though.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] Someone who will actually tell the truth

Yeah, right. How about someone who will tell less transparant lies? At least that would be a step in the right direction. And while we're at it, how about someone with a descent grasp of the english language.

Nucular indeed.
 
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