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Thread: Further proof of Evolution? 4-finned dolphin....

  1. #73
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    Edit: I realize most of you won't read the whole thing, but atleast read this except.

    http://www.atheists.org/evolution/morrisdebate.html

    Copyright © 2006 American Atheists, Inc. All rights reserved.

    Wolfsie: Let's talk about the big animals. We've got to take a
    break here ...I want to know what was on this boat, how many animals were on the boat, and let's get into the big picture here, that's people understand...We'll be right back.

    [commercial]

    Wolfsie: Back on AM Indiana, talking about Noah's Ark. Frank, let me ask you very specifically, let's get from the very tiny things to the big things. What about the story, the size of the ark? And what Noah would have had to put on the ark? What troubles you? And then Professor Morris can respond.

    Zindler: Not only is there the problem of how do you get all of the species of land animals into the ark, the primitive people who created the flood myth in the first place, in the fourth millennium B.C. or whenever, they didn't realize that plants were living things, and they didn't realize the implications of Noah not taking fishes and marine organisms into the ark. If we limit ourselves to just the water that is known on the planet, and the volume of sedimentary strata that we know of, and if as the creationists claim, all these sedimentary strata were deposited during that one year, the ocean at that time would have been actually two parts water to one part mud! [29] Now, if that were the case, with a world-destroying flood, how would the whales have stayed alive? They could not have been swimming... through, straining out plankton and so on, to feed. Delicate corals die if there is just the tiniest bit of silt in the water, or change in water temperature, and so forth. So Noah would have to have had enormous numbers of aquaria in the ark to keep the whales going, to keep the marine fishes from dying because of the dilution of the salt water with fresh water, to keep the fresh water organisms alive because of the salt coming in, and all these noxious things that the volcanos are throwing out... Incidentally, if all the volcanic lava beds that we see interspersed between these sedimentary rocks were laid down during one year, the amount of heat released from that lava would have heated the water of the ocean to several thousand degrees centigrade! And so Noah's ark would have had to have been air-conditioned! [30]

    Wolfsie: And how many animals on the boat? How many species?

    Zindler: There are at least a million species of organisms known, and the creationists say, well we wouldn't have to have all the species. We would have maybe just a general representative of them. But even so, with the need for the aquaria, a boat simply the size of an ocean liner would be inadequate. [31]

    Wolfsie: Okay...

    Morris: Frank, you are critiquing the biblical account here. You're saying that Noah...[three-second flaw in videotape of debate] Here's the Bible, [holds up a Bible] Now...

    Zindler: A very ignorant book, by the way...

    Morris: Oh my!

    Zindler: Very unscientific...

    Morris: You are critiquing this account...Will you tell me where it says Noah had to take the fish on board?

    Zindler: I'm saying it was an error because they didn't know he had to take the fish on board...

    Morris: What you're saying is the biblical account is wrong.

    Zindler: Yes!

    Morris: Because there's not room on board for all the fish and whales and...

    Zindler: No-no-no! It was wrong because they didn't know...

    Morris: Nowhere is it claimed that they had to be on board.

    Zindler: That's why it's wrong...You see, for it to be a plausible argument, they would have had to say, "and he had to take the fish on board, and the corals on board..."

    Morris: See what this is? Let me show you what this is. This is Atheistic logic here...

    Wolfsie: Well he doesn't deny that!

    Morris: No, he doesn't...He's Madalyn Murray's right-hand man!

    Zindler: I was showing that the Bible is pre-scientific, you see...

    Morris: An Atheist assumes a Very arrogant position, in my mind, that there is no god. Now, every philosopher knows that there is no such thing as an absolute negative. [32] He's saying there is no god...

    Zindler: You have to prove there is one; I don't have to disprove it

    Morris: Okay, but you're making...

    Zindler: The onus of proof is on you who allege... [33]

    Morris: But to say that there is no god...that's illogical!

    Zindler: On the contrary! It is extraordinarily illogical to say there is a god who couldn't tell the people who wrote the Bible that they had to take fishes and corals in the ark!

    Morris: Now your logic is going the same direction...You're saying that I know, for a fact, that no whales could have survived outside the ark...

    Zindler: I would hope you would know that!

    Morris: Well, you're making the statement that you know this knowledge, that no whales could have survived outside the ark—Now, I think that's an illogical statement. The flood is not as you characterize it. Let me tell you some things about water...

    Zindler: It destroyed the world, supposedly...

    Morris: You betcha! By the billions fish, clams, whales, died in the flood, or maybe not billions of whales, by the billions...

    Zindler: That's another thing. There are too many fossils for one world! If you were to...

    Wolfsie: Hey, Frank, now hold it! You know...

    Zindler: You can't have all the known fossils living at one time!

    Wolfsie: ...I was just about to understand something, and you're changing on me! Now wait a second...

    Zindler: You see, you can't have all the known fossils living at one time... [34]

    Wolfsie: I was just on the verge of getting something here... [To Morris] You're claiming that the fish didn't have to go on the ark because the fish just would have survived, because they live in water anyway...

    Morris: The Bible is very explicit about what goes on the ark. It says that—it says the land animals. It says all those in whose nostrils is the breath of life, of everything that lives on the dry land. So many animals... that's excluding whales...

    Zindler: That's right! [35]

    Morris: ...although they breathe air, but they don't live on land. It talks about cattle and domesticated animals. It talks about creeping things, the small animals...and the beasts of the field, which are the large animals. And it says very explicitly that those had to be on board the ark...and the birds. Now, he says millions of species. If you add up that number of species, you know, the maximum number even that anyone would even propose would be on board the ark would be, I mean the outside maximum, the worst-case scenario, we're talking maybe fifty thousand animals... [36] And the ark is certainly big enough to carry that number of animals for the length of time that they had to be...

    Zindler: Okay, you'd think that there...

    Morris: Now what he's saying is—he's adding to the story. He's saying that the story makes no sense unless you put the fish onboard. I think that's an illogical addition to it...

    Zindler: You've apparently never raised tropical fish, John....you would know how difficult it is to keep fish alive!

    Morris: Let me tell you something about water. There are many, many studies where waters of different temperature, of different salinities, of different chemistries, segregate. And during the flood there would have been zones of fresh water, of salt water... there is... again, billions of sea creatures died in Noah's flood. But all the Bible, the biblical account, requires is that two of each of these created kinds would have survived somewhere in a pocket...

    Zindler: Somewhere close enough together that they could get back together after the flood! And that stratification would have been impossible, John, because of all the volcanic activity you talk about going on. [37] This would be churning stuff up all the time [hubub]...

    Wolfsie: Were there dinosaurs on the ark? Were there dinosaurs on this ark?

    Morris: The flood account does not predict...

    Wolfsie: Oh! I've got to take a break... What I'm trying to establish...

    Zindler: Of course there would have been dinosaurs on the ark!

    Wolfsie: I want to understand, because I want to talk about how Noah's flood occurred... and then I think a fair question is, if there were dinosaurs on this ark, how is that in keeping with how we know that man and dinosaurs didn't exist at the same time. And if there weren't dinosaurs, where did they come from, since all the species were wiped out? That seems like a fair question. I'll try to remember how I asked that in just a moment, stay tuned...

    Edit: agnostic, atheist, christian, whatever. The link I posted is a very good read and entertaining no matter what you are. I highly reccomend sitting down with a nice cup of coffe and having a nice read.

  2. #74
    endparenthesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (nepenthes_ak @ Nov. 07 2006,2:57)]yea but when we were children we scratched our brains through our noses...

    I think im done with this... Ive allways been open to youre guy's thinking and tried to figure it out, I really have, Ive been open minded the whole time

    But whats the point in trying when you guys wont even concider.
    If you'll attempt to answer my flood questions I might bother asking. It's usually like pulling teeth trying to get people to address even the basics though.

    Open up that old thread (easier to open it with "Print this Topic") and search for "flood" and you'll see what I mean.

    In my experience there's little point in talking science when it comes to flood discussion anyway. Either A) flood believers try to use science to prove the flood happened while ignoring mountains of evidence and theory that say it couldn't have (and the science that "proves" it is usually pseudoscience... not simply because it suggests a flood, but because it can't stand up to even basic questioning) or B) flood believers say God kept temporarily manipulating the laws of physics to make it all work out, which effectively ends the conversation because it's totally unverifiable (let alone the problems in logic that crop up).

    Usually it starts with step A and ends with step B after the questions start. It's quite tedious to deal with.

  3. #75
    nepenthes_ak's Avatar
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    go back a page you will se an awnser to the flood question...

  4. #76

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    nepenthes_ak...

    Did you miss the part about the bible NOT BEING PROOF FOR ANYTHING?

    maybe you should go back a few pages...
    Z polski y dumny
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  5. #77
    nepenthes_ak's Avatar
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    Did you for get the part about

    Personal Veiws and how they affect how some one lives...

    / Start EXAMPLE

    I think pots ok

    pots great, so im going to go smoke lots of it no matter what any one ealse says legal or illegal

    / End Example

    Its like JLAPS siggy... Except I cant say a few things cause I would end up getting kicked off the forums...

    Im sorry you have a beef with christians, get the hell over it ok!? IM sorry you are so close minded that you can even begin to concider creationism. Let alone talk about it with some kind of humanity.

  6. #78
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    Pot?

    It's not that we have a beef with christians, it's that they, IME, can't give a straight answer. When the DO use science, they only talk about what supports their viewpoint and ignore the mountains of data that disproves it. It's common sense, people.

  7. #79
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    on the whole flood.........you guys are not reading it right. you are going by the current ENGLISH version. IIRC if you go by some of the earlier hebrew versions that the present ones were translated from it did not say for him to gather up 2 of every animal......it said gather up two of every clean animal or something along those lines. which ment he gathered up around 250 critters total IIRC. 2 oxen, 2 donkeys, 2 chickens, 2 geese.........ect. i forget where but it lists somewhere else in the bible what animals are considered clean.

    part of the problem with arguments where you are quoting scripture is your only going by the current english translation. if you go by older translations things are alil bit off. another example is the 10 commandments. the english version of "thou shall not kill" is incorrect. the hebrew word used was the one for murder. which in consept are two very different things. one is killing for no reason, the other allows the defence of ones self even if the outcome is fatal you are not breaking a conmandmet provided lethal force was needed to save your own life.

    as far as my view of the bible, it was written by men and there for it is quite possible it is flawed. being that most definatly men translated it from one language to another that even if the original texts are 100% accurate, the current translations most definatly arent 100% accurate
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  8. #80
    nepenthes_ak's Avatar
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    Cause the only christians that are willing to speak out are the ones who dont know much *aka me* and the ones that know any thing are usualy quite and dont speak out much, go talk to a strait forward Nondenominationl pastor!

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