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Thread: Further proof of Evolution? 4-finned dolphin....

  1. #17
    Outsiders71's Avatar
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    Evolution does exist and it must for the survival of life on our continuously changing Earth. However evolutionists get confuzzled between what is evolution and what is creation. In order for something to evolve it must first exist (or be created). Correct me if I'm wrong but when a species evolves, the specie that doesn't dies off. Survival of the fittest if you will.

    Sure we might have similar DNA to [insert monkey specie here] but you're jumping way too many conclusions if you believe we came from a monkey. It is also pretty far fetched if you believe all life on Earth evolved from a one celled thing in the ocean billions of years ago. Perhaps if all life were some type of plant or fish with little variances the theory that we all evolved from something would satisfy. But the fact of the matter is in my logical opinion and beliefs all species were created (however which way you believe), I believe God created everything. Evolution is just another phenomenon God created in order to sustain life on Earth.
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]We have PROVEN evolution? How? When?
    Oh, years and years ago, long before any of us were even born.

    Evolution = change in allele frequency over time. This has been observed many, many, many times in the lab and in the wild, to the point that doubting it occurs is just stupid.

    Natural selection = unequal propagation of genotypes. Once again, this has been observed so many times that claiming it does not exist is ridiculous.

    Speciation = the separation of gene pools. Not as frequently observed, but still common; scientific discoveries of new species evoling from existing ones are now so common they're relegated to 3rd rate journals. It's so common it's boring.

    Adaptation (noun) = a variant of a trait which confers a fitness advantage over alternative forms of the trait. Again, so common as to be dull.

    Adaptation (verb) = the spread of an adaptation by natural selection. Again, dirt common.

    What all of this boils down to is Gould's famous elaboration that evolution is both a fact and theory.

    The fact of evolution is the process we see going on around us in nature and in the lab. The theory of evolution is the mechanisms we use to explain what we see (heritable fitness variations spreading through a population). The fact of evolution is "The allele for such-and-such disease resistance has spread through frog population A...", while the theory is "...because the allele conferred a heritable fitness benefit and thus was acted upon by natural selection".

    It's like gravity. There's the fact of gravity (I drop things and they fall according to certain equations) and then there's the *theory* of gravity (gravity is caused by deformations in the space-time continuum / by gravitons / by superstrings). One is the fact, the observable occurence, the other is the explanation, why that occurence happens in the first place.

    I would like to note, with no small degree of satisfaction, that due to the failure to produce a Unified Field Theory and the impending demise of M-theory, we actually have a better understanding of the theory of evolution than we do the theory of gravity.

    To repeat: we are more sure of the mechanisms by which species evolve than we are of the mechanisms that keep you from simply floating away.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Since we do not know the full workings of how DNA functions, we cannot fully understand the minute workings on evolution. Like Mokele said manipulating one gene can affect manydifferent things. Since one singel gene can affect expression on one or more different genes, and different combinations can affect many different aspects of developement. So realy all a mutaion had to do was change one gene and Bam everything falls into place for the cilia motor to be formed. Then that gene is kept because it helps the species like natural selection says.
    While that is possible, actual empirical evidence points to a different mechanism: exaptation.

    Exaptation is the process by which a trait, formerly selected for one reason, becomes 'co-opted' into a new task and is selected and modifed to those ends.

    The bacterial flagella is actually an excellent example of that: we have an intermediate, and it's not a flagella - it's a toxin-injecting device. These devices are built with *mostly* the same genes, in *mostly* the same pattern as the bacterial flagella, but serve a totally different purpose, boring into other cells to kill them, so the bacteria may feast on the remains. there are numerous stages of this toxin pump. It appears that what happened was that bacteria evolved a boring needle, but then mutations allowed it to become a propulsion device.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ] It makes sence that the neadertals didn't die out like previously expected. They were stronger and taller than other humanoids of the time, and just as smart. There brain sizes and the fact that they also used tools points to that. It never made sence that they would have just died out. According to a show on cavemen scientist now believe they didn't die out, but intigrated with homo erectus ( I sure hope that was the correct species. Anyway I think you get the jist of what I am saying)
    Actually, it's throught they merged with our own species, Homo sapiens. Also, their intelligence is still up for debate: the total brain volume was larger, but they had a smaller frontal lobe (thinking) and larger occipital lobe (vision). Better hunters, perhaps, but unlikely much smarter.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]ALso there is a difference between apes and monkeys too. Just FYI We are not related to the spider monkey and other monkeys. We are related to the great apes like erangatang(sp) and gorrillas. They just took a different road on the evolutionary path.
    Technically speaking, all life on earth is related; it's just a matter of how closely. But you're mostly right.

    Humans are most closely related to chimps & bonobos, then next gorillas, then orangutans, then gibbons (the 'lesser' apes). The apes as a whole, including us, are most closely related to Old-World monkeys, and the combined group of Apes & Old World monkeys is most closely related to New-World monkeys. From there on it's the various prosimians such as lemurs, aye-ayes, potos, and that lot.

    That was annoying to type; one of these days, I'll invent some sort of Java code or something that can automatically generate phylogenetic trees that can be posted in this manner.



    Anyhow, if you want to prove evolution yourself, send away for two sets of fruit flies; white eyed and red-eyed. Start with an equal mix. Every generation, kill half the red-eyes. After many generations (which, in fruit-fly terms, is about 2-3 months), you'll have only white-eyed flies. Even if you start with 100 red-eyes to 1 white-eye, the result will be the same, though it'll take longer. That's all evolution is; the animals with genes that promote survival (or avoid death) breed more, and become an every-increasing part of the population.

    Mokele
    \"With malleus aforethought, mammals got an earful of their ancestor's jaw.\"
    --J. Burns, on the evolution of auditory ossicles.

  3. #19
    Cardiac Nurse JB_OrchidGuy's Avatar
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    Sir read my post I did not say we came from a monkey we came from APES. There is a big difference!

    I would beleive that IF we all were made from different building blocks, but that is not the case. We are all made from the same building block of amino protiens and molecules.

    Your also must not have a grasp of how long billions of years is. Humans have only been here for a speck on the time line of how long the earth has been here. There has been plenty of time for a colony of single celled organism to evolve into the diversity of life we have on earth now.

    Evolution happens in leaps at time remember? Therefor it is possible for (one) single celled organism that devides by celular devision to mutate as it devides giving you two different cells. (because of the mutation) then those two different cells devide giving you two distinct single celled organisms. Then one of those mutates and the variation becomes exponetial. Leading to multicelled organisme that further mutate over millions of years. Even a million years is a drop in the bucket when you compair to billions of years.

    I find that those people who are religous and believe in creation use an excuse like this.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I believe God created everything. Evolution is just another phenomenon God created in order to sustain life on Earth.
    It used to be thought that when a bad person got sick it was Gods will that that person was sick. Then Doctors came along and now it is Gods will that the medical professionals save that person. Sorry I don't buy it. It is my opinion the excuse "it is Gods will" is the voice of ignorance that does not have the answers and it give people a way to explain what cannot be explained at this time. Instead of trying ti figure it out, many people are duped into believing an adiquated explination.
    JB
    Friend me on facebook with JB_orchidguy@yahoo.com.
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    Yeah, the pressures at one point probably caused some distant ancestor of the dolphin and some other mammal (which became land dwelling 4 legged-s) to split. Evolution could have been due to climate change, geographical/ habitual/ sexual isolation that causes the genes of ancestors to progress along differently in their new habitat. Evidence lies in as far back as organisms go. That is probably why apes aren't changing into humans (that old story...) today, because the selective factors don't require them to. They're doing just fine in the trees.

    There are many basic homologous structures in our ancestors which have adapted (adaptive radiation?) to form the fins of dolphins, leg of a man, hind leg of a horse etc etc. What you are seeing in there is probably a repressed gene coming out because of some weird external factor. Like some of the others have said it would be interesting to see how it fairs in the wild.

    J

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Correct me if I'm wrong but when a species evolves, the specie that doesn't dies off. Survival of the fittest if you will.
    Actually, not always. Many times *both* survive.

    Imagine you have one population, and suddenly a river splits the habitat in two, separating it into two populations (assume it's something small, which can't cross the river). One side of the river becomes plains, while the other is forest. Faced with different selective pressures, they evolve in different directions, and eventually they couldn't interbreed even if they river dried up and they both intermingled. Each spreads throughout their habitat, becoming two new species.

    This happens all the time, and sometimes doesn't even require geographic separation; it's especially common in parasites who jump to a new host. The colonizers evolve to suit the new host, and soon there are two species in the same range, one on each host species.

    Of course, then things like asteroids happen, but that's a whole different ball of wax.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Sure we might have similar DNA to [insert monkey specie here] but you're jumping way too many conclusions if you believe we came from a monkey.
    Why? Our DNA isn't similar, it's almost totally identical. We have a chain of fossils going all the way back.

    But more important than the genes are what's *wrong* with the genes. See, viruses insert their DNA in cells in order to make copies, but every so often, something goes wrong, and the DNA of the virus gets damaged and can't replicate. It simply inserts into the organism's DNA, fails, and stays there, passed on with the rest of the real genes.

    Chimps and humans share the same dead virus parts, in *precisely* the same places (though some are unique to each lineage, aquired after we diverged). Similarly, Chimps and humans share some, but not all of our dead viri with gorillas (indicating a slightly more distant ancestry). So on and so forth.

    Is there *really* any other plausible explanation for why we inherited the same dead virus parts in the same places with the same disabling mutations, other than that the virus infected our common ancestor, failed, and got 'stuck'?

    And before you ask, yes, they are real virus genomes; we recently 'ressurected' one, using data from human and ape genomes to reconstruct a *viable* virus that infected our ancestor 5 million years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ] It is also pretty far fetched if you believe all life on Earth evolved from a one celled thing in the ocean billions of years ago.
    Not really: why does all life work the same, at the molecular level, otherwise? There's no reason things *must* work the way they do; there's tons of plausible chemical alternatives. Yet we *all*, from bacteria to Bob Smith down the road, read the DNA code *precisely* the same way. Why, if not common descent?

    Why do all living things use the same 20 amino acids? There's many, many more than 20 amino acids that are chemically possible, but *ALL* life uses the same 20.

    Why do all animo acids have L chirality? There's no reason R-chiral ones won't work. But still, *every* living thing uses the same convention.

    None of these unifying factors are chemically necessary; we've proven so both with chemistry and by artificially altering bacteria to work in other ways. Yet all life shares this commonality.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Perhaps if all life were some type of plant or fish with little variances the theory that we all evolved from something would satisfy.
    You are aware than there are 40,000 species of fish, compared to 4,000 mammals (of which 1200 are bats and 1000 are rodents), right? And that fish have far, FAR more morphological, biochemical and genetic diversity than mammals, right?

    That's like saying "I'd like to buy that cheesburger, but I only have enough money for a 30-foot yacht and full-time crew." Fish are the paragons of vertebrate diversity.

    Plants I'm less familair with, but suffice to say, they similarly put mammals to shame. Hell, just look at what we grow! Plants have evolved to eat animals, but no animals have evolved the ability to photosynthesize.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ] But the fact of the matter is in my logical opinion and beliefs all species were created (however which way you believe), I believe God created everything. Evolution is just another phenomenon God created in order to sustain life on Earth.
    But if you believe God used evolution as a tool, and that speciation occurs, why do you reject the common ancestry of life?

    Just because something shares a common ancestor doesn't make it any less special. Look at your family. You all share a common ancestor, but aren't each and every one of you unique, distinct and different in your own special ways?

    Similarly, why does common ancestry pose a problem to God using evolution to create life and us? Couldn't you view us like you family, all originating from the same source, yet all different, unique and special?

    Mokele
    \"With malleus aforethought, mammals got an earful of their ancestor's jaw.\"
    --J. Burns, on the evolution of auditory ossicles.

  6. #22
    Cardiac Nurse JB_OrchidGuy's Avatar
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    Mokele thanks for correcting me and agreeing with my concepts at the same time. I admit I do not have an in depth knoledge of the subject. I just know enough to be dangerous. LOL I love learning new things and I KNOW I do not have all the answers. Keep on sharing your knowledge. I LOVE IT! I wish I knew this stuff when I was debating this with a bible thumpering coworker, who do not believe in evolution, last night!
    JB
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  7. #23
    Outsiders71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    It used to be thought that when a bad person got sick it was Gods will that that person was sick. Then Doctors came along and now it is Gods will that the medical professionals save that person. Sorry I don't buy it. It is my opinion the excuse "it is Gods will" is the voice of ignorance that does not have the answers and it give people a way to explain what cannot be explained at this time. Instead of trying ti figure it out, many people are duped into believing an adiquated explination.
    So sure we have all the answers aren't we? For every scientific explanation to disprove the existence of God there is a counter and valid explanation to prove His existence. Choose to believe what you want brother but rationally speaking we're both right on level ground to believe what we believe. I can see both sides of the spectrum but science really does nothing but strengthen my beliefs in God. You on the other hand seem to carry the attitude that because scientists haven't proven the existence of the eternal being known as God that He does not exist. You fail to render the other side that science also cannot prove that He does not exist. Just know that God loves you even if you will forever reject the possibility of His existence.
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

  8. #24
    Cardiac Nurse JB_OrchidGuy's Avatar
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    I just find it hard to believe in something that has absolutely no tangible evidence, To my knowledge. If there is some that cannot be disproven then please share it with me. Just because something cannot be disproven doesn't mean it exists. It can be speculated it exists. So please point to a valid explination to prove the existance of a god. Because at the momment I am unaware of one. Science has proven everything to my knowledge so far.

    And just for the record I have never said there was or wasn't a god. Although the evidence to the fact that there isn't is mounting. I am still just sitting on the fence leaning to the side of science. Since science has evidence and religion doesn't.

    I never said we had all the answers either, but the longer the scientist pluck at it the closer they will have the explination of everything. Yet even that will not be enough, because even if the scientist do explain everything to a tee and get EVERYTHING right. Then the religion folks are still going to say well that is how God chose to start things and that is how they unfilded. Just like the scientist explained. So the debate can go on, but religion will just keep moving things back and reinterpreting the bible to put god as the initiator of things regardless.
    JB
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