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Reinstate the Draft

  • #41
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Outsiders71 @ Nov. 20 2006,11:14)]We may have a VP who supports torture to get vital information from terrorists however we also have citizens who feel that these terrorists deserve the same rights as U.S. citizens. You tell me what is worse...

Who are we to sit and watch horrendus acts such as genocide happen when we can do something to prevent millions of people from dying? Who are we to just sit there and watch starving peoples die while we have surpluses of food? Who are we to watch sickly people die because they don't have access to vaccines and medicines? Who are we to just sit around and watch the AIDS cases grow in Africa when we have the knowledge to teach and educate Africans how to avoid contracting the disease?
What rights dont they deserve. Shouldnt they get a fair trial like everyone else without being tortured. If you torture someone long enough they will tell you what you want to hear. If these people have truley commited these crimes they will be found guilty. Germany once had party that thought some people did not derserve the same rights as everyone else. So how long before we have our conscripted soilders goosestepping through our streets and all the muslims in camps where they are forced to take "showers"? I know this is extreme but i know many people (most of them christian acting in a very unchristian way) who think that we should wipe out those evil muslims. I just fear too many people in this country would be willing to repeat the mistakes of the past as long as it was against a minority like muslims because they fear them and do not understand them.

As for us not sitting and watching the horrors of genocide, how many soilders have we sent to Dafur? Oh thats right 0. How well has the western style "democracy" worked to stop the genocide in Iraq. How many people could feed with 2 billion dollars a week? How many could we give medical care to? What about all the people in the United States who cant afford medical care while we bleed 2 billion dollars a week into a country that doesnt want us there? What about the fact that our own government has conluded that we have made our threat of terrorist acts WORSE by our actions in Iraq and the Middle East?
 
  • #42
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Outsiders71 @ Nov. 20 2006,5:14)]So you are concluding that no one over there in Iraq wanted freedom from Saddams brutal dictatorship?

We may have a VP who supports torture to get vital information from terrorists however we also have citizens who feel that these terrorists deserve the same rights as U.S. citizens. You tell me what is worse...

Yes we already know there have been some a-wall soldiers who did terribly wrong things. No one supports what they did but thankfully they are the few and not the many.

Isolation is a foreign policy option. We stay out of other countries businesses and don't interfere with anything they do. We let terrorists cells recruit and grow. We let them get better weapons and more training. Sound familiar?

Who are we to sit and watch horrendus acts such as genocide happen when we can do something to prevent millions of people from dying? Who are we to just sit there and watch starving peoples die while we have surpluses of food? Who are we to watch sickly people die because they don't have access to vaccines and medicines? Who are we to just sit around and watch the AIDS cases grow in Africa when we have the knowledge to teach and educate Africans how to avoid contracting the disease?
Yeah, a lot of them did. Now they want to be left alone. We don't belong there.

Yeah, I do think the terrorist deserve basic human rights. Torturing someone is terrorism as far as i'm concerned. If we torture them we are no better than they are.

We don't have to kill people. It's called diplomacy and education!

Speaking of genocide, who aren't we doing more in Darfur? They are the ones who need help!

"Who are we to just sit there and watch starving peoples die while we have surpluses of food? Who are we to watch sickly people die because they don't have access to vaccines and medicines? Who are we to just sit around and watch the AIDS cases grow in Africa when we have the knowledge to teach and educate Africans how to avoid contracting the disease?"

What does that have to do with invading a country who doesn't want us? Nothing.

Edit: good post ktulu! I posted before I read everything else.
 
  • #43
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Outsiders71 @ Nov. 20 2006,11:29)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
First off, the reason we are hated is because of things like our ill concieved invasion of Iraq. Isreal is not reacognized by its neighbors because Palestine was an ally of Syria, Iran, Iraq, Jordan (who actully does recognize Isreal, though they do not like them) when Isreal was set down in the middle of Palestine and the Palestinians were told to leave, but thats a whole different issue which you should really research the truth behind instead of believing what your Jewish controlled Media tells you(many of whom are Isreali or have family in Isreal)

We were hated before we were in Iraq. It's funny how people forget 9/11. Who's country did we invade then? Even before 9/11 why was our embassys bombed? What did we do then?

Israel historically and rightfully belongs to the Jewish people:
http://www.sacredland.org/world_sites_pages/Jerusalem.html
Actully Isreal rightfully belongs to the Canninites, read your bible it glorfies the Isreali massacre of the Cannintes (Dueteronomy 20:17). Also when did a religious text become the basis of estabilshing political borders? Doesnt pretty much every religion claim it has rights over the entire world, so which one do we choose. Should we give all of europe back to the Italians? I mean Rome did conqure all of France, Spain, most of England, North Africa, The Middle East, the Balkans, parts of Germany, lets give it all back to the Italians, I mean its rightfully theirs since they, like the Jewish people, slaughtered the natives and took it from them. Also if your an American of European decent you need to leave, as this entire hemisphere rightfully belongs to the Native Americans and them only. Oh thats right we massacred them so in the eyes of God its ok to take their land. I know lets just massacre anyone who doesnt like the United States and take their land it would make so much more land for us.


As for the reason we were hated before 9/11, again our presence in the Muslim holy land (Saudi Arabia) where we do not respect the traditions of Islam and their cultural values. And we were hated in Iraq because we stoped their invasion of Kuwait which seceded from Iraq. So this made us very unpopular with Iraqis.
 
  • #44
Here's another handy definition, inspired by Clint's post:
Torture: (verb) 1. to inflict severe pain on someone, usu. for the purpose of punishment or coercion 2. to inflict severe mental suffering or anxiety on someone, as above
~Joe

PS - Nice one, ktulu. To add - Kuwait was then used as a military foothold for numerous actions against Islamic military/political interests, if I'm not mistaken.
 
  • #45
I would just say I was gay and get out of it... No lie..
 
  • #46
I'm the only progeny of my parents, and in school for the next 7 years...good thing i wouldn't have to fight.

If that happened though, and my name came up....see you guys in Canada
 
  • #47
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Outsiders71 @ Nov. 20 2006,5:14)]We may have a VP who supports torture to get vital information from terrorists however we also have citizens who feel that these terrorists deserve the same rights as U.S. citizens. You tell me what is worse...
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

I read that on a ratty old piece of paper somewhere.

The fundamental rights of US citizens are also fundamental human rights... that's one of the beautiful things about the US.

A good christian should never have to be reminded that people remain human even when it becomes uncomfortable for us to consider them as such.
 
  • #48
Well said, EP.
~Joe
 
  • #49
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
Outsiders, we had been pulling strings in Afghanistan for decades before 9/11. We turned an innocuous farming country into a hotbed of terrorist activity to use as our pawn against Russia, destroying the peaceful lives of hundreds of thousands of people caught in the middle. We didn't do it for humanitarian reasons; it was a move inspired totally by paranoia and cold-war-era lust for power. When they were no longer of use to us, we dropped them like a bad habit and left them to mend the damage caused by our war. They have every reason to be angry with us, as do many, many other nations. Please do some research.

I don't know how reliable this information is but I will also agree that I do not know the full story. Could you provide some references to this information for my own reading purposes. Thank you.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
What people are upset about is not that the Jews moved back, but that Israel (with the assistance of a US-sponsored hand-of-God) did so by forcibly, violently removing innocent citizens from the lands that they had lived on for generations.
~Joe

That's ironic. How were the Jews removed from their homeland? You mean to tell me that Muslims didn't violently remove innocent Jewish citizens from the lands that they had lived on for generations?
 
  • #50
The information isn't hard to find. Here's something to get you started - I'm sure you can find more than enough information if you Google the topics mentioned here.
That's not irony at all. Irony would be if I said that they were led away from the lands that are now Israel with offers of cotton candy and My Little Ponies. And just because the Jews were displaced over two millenia ago, before many people had even concieved of the notion of civil rights, it doesn't make it OK for them to turn around and do the same awful thing in return today. Besides that, miltary action today is far and away more lethal than similar manuevers in biblical times, so chances are that the Israelis are escalating things, not just returning the favor. This is all without considering the political and economical interests involved in the founding of modern Israel.
And since when was eye-for-an-eye a good idea? For someone with biblical quotes in their signature, you seem to have awfully barbarous ideas about justice.
~Joe
 
  • #51
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Outsiders71 @ Nov. 21 2006,1:02)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
What people are upset about is not that the Jews moved back, but that Israel (with the assistance of a US-sponsored hand-of-God) did so by forcibly, violently removing innocent citizens from the lands that they had lived on for generations.
~Joe

That's ironic. How were the Jews removed from their homeland? You mean to tell me that Muslims didn't violently remove innocent Jewish citizens from the lands that they had lived on for generations?
Actully most of the Jews that currently live in Isreal are from Europe. The Majority of the Jews in Palestine when Islam was founded converted to Islam, as did most Christians. The ones that did not were treated with respect and tollerance and only had a pay a small tax to worship their religion. Violence was not used to remove Christians or Jews from "the Holy Land", it was the christians in the Crusades who massacred the Jews, Christians, and Muslims when they took over with the approach of "kill them all and let God sort them out". In fact if you read the Qu'ran it commands Muslims not to harm "people of the book" as long as they pay the tax to continue to worship their reilgion "of the book". Is a tax completely fair, no, but it beats a bullet to the back of the head or a tank running over your house and family.
 
  • #52
Interesting, ktulu, I hadn't heard all that before.
As for the fairness of the tax... relative to the things that went on in other civilizations at similar points in history, the Muslims should've recieved a humanitarian award for such a tolerant policy.
~Joe
 
  • #53
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Nov. 20 2006,5:43)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Outsiders71 @ Nov. 20 2006,11:14)]We may have a VP who supports torture to get vital information from terrorists however we also have citizens who feel that these terrorists deserve the same rights as U.S. citizens. You tell me what is worse...

Who are we to sit and watch horrendus acts such as genocide happen when we can do something to prevent millions of people from dying? Who are we to just sit there and watch starving peoples die while we have surpluses of food? Who are we to watch sickly people die because they don't have access to vaccines and medicines? Who are we to just sit around and watch the AIDS cases grow in Africa when we have the knowledge to teach and educate Africans how to avoid contracting the disease?
What rights dont they deserve. Shouldnt they get a fair trial like everyone else without being tortured. If you torture someone long enough they will tell you what you want to hear. If these people have truley commited these crimes they will be found guilty. Germany once had party that thought some people did not derserve the same rights as everyone else. So how long before we have our conscripted soilders goosestepping through our streets and all the muslims in camps where they are forced to take "showers"? I know this is extreme but i know many people (most of them christian acting in a very unchristian way) who think that we should wipe out those evil muslims. I just fear too many people in this country would be willing to repeat the mistakes of the past as long as it was against a minority like muslims because they fear them and do not understand them.

As for us not sitting and watching the horrors of genocide, how many soilders have we sent to Dafur? Oh thats right 0. How well has the western style "democracy" worked to stop the genocide in Iraq. How many people could feed with 2 billion dollars a week? How many could we give medical care to? What about all the people in the United States who cant afford medical care while we bleed 2 billion dollars a week into a country that doesnt want us there? What about the fact that our own government has conluded that we have made our threat of terrorist acts WORSE by our actions in Iraq and the Middle East?
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
What rights dont they deserve. Shouldnt they get a fair trial like everyone else without being tortured. If you torture someone long enough they will tell you what you want to hear. If these people have truley commited these crimes they will be found guilty.

So if Osama was to be captured and boastfully claimed he knew some kind of terrorist attack was going to happen in the U.S. 10x the intensity of the last one, how would you get this information?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
Germany once had party that thought some people did not derserve the same rights as everyone else. So how long before we have our conscripted soilders goosestepping through our streets and all the muslims in camps where they are forced to take "showers"? I know this is extreme....

Like you said this is extreme and I don't see it happening. The problem isn't with the Muslim minority or people with Islamic faith. It's radical Islamists such as Osama who cry out Jihad on everything.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
As for us not sitting and watching the horrors of genocide, how many soilders have we sent to Dafur? Oh thats right 0. How well has the western style "democracy" worked to stop the genocide in Iraq. How many people could feed with 2 billion dollars a week? How many could we give medical care to?

I agree.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
What about all the people in the United States who cant afford medical care while we bleed 2 billion dollars a week into a country that doesnt want us there? What about the fact that our own government has conluded that we have made our threat of terrorist acts WORSE by our actions in Iraq and the Middle East?

A little lesson of humility here. Even the lowest of the low here in the United States are doing much better than most of the rest of the world.

Actually I think that analysis is wrong. We haven't been attacked (praise God) since 2001. 5 years have gone by and they haven't been able to do anything. If they could have done something they would have by now.
 
  • #54
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
Yeah, a lot of them did. Now they want to be left alone. We don't belong there.

All of that is your opinion.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
Yeah, I do think the terrorist deserve basic human rights. Torturing someone is terrorism as far as i'm concerned. If we torture them we are no better than they are.

What methods of "torture" are we using and what basic human rights don't they have?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
We don't have to kill people. It's called diplomacy and education!

I'll make sure to advice George W. to send you to negotiate with the terrorists
laugh.gif
. In all seriousness though both diplomacy and education doesn't exist inside terrorists organizations.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
What does that have to do with invading a country who doesn't want us? Nothing.

Policing the world...
 
  • #55
I don't have time to read every post right now, but I'll say I support the draft because I think it's the best (only?) way to prevent stupid and corrupt leaders from starting stupid and corrupt wars. Or at least it'll prevent them from being re-elected afterwards. But only if it's a draft without college deferments
 
  • #56
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
Actully Isreal rightfully belongs to the Canninites, read your bible it glorfies the Isreali massacre of the Cannintes (Dueteronomy 20:17). Also when did a religious text become the basis of estabilshing political borders? Doesnt pretty much every religion claim it has rights over the entire world, so which one do we choose.

I wasn't basing my reasoning biblically because obviously there are many here who don't give merit to that. Historically though the Jews settled there before the Muslims.
 
  • #57
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Outsiders71 @ Nov. 20 2006,7:22)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
Yeah, a lot of them did. Now they want to be left alone. We don't belong there.

All of that is your opinion.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
Yeah, I do think the terrorist deserve basic human rights. Torturing someone is terrorism as far as i'm concerned. If we torture them we are no better than they are.

What methods of "torture" are we using and what basic human rights don't they have?
Lol, when I see them on TV saying we don't belong, that's their opinion.

We are talking about puting plastic over someone and dunking/throwing water on them to make them think they are drowning. That's torture. I'd say not being tortured is a basic human right...
 
  • #58
If Osama were captured and started boasting about his next attack, I wouldn't worry, because our government knew about 9/11 well in advance and allowed it to happen in order to improve public sentiments towards a war on the middle east. If our goverment had wanted to stop the 9/11 hijackings, they could've. That's why we haven't had any more attacks - because we were in a position to stop them to begin with.
The problem isn't radical jihadists. Nobody over there likes the US anymore, because we treat them like all like a bunch cartoon supervillains, trample all over their countries and openly mock their religious beliefs. Everyone is uneasy, and that mass unease makes it simple to recruit people to extremist doctrines. There have been a few extremists there forever - why didn't anything major start happing until the Gulf War? I'll tell you why; because we went over there and showed all the forward-thinking Muslims that the jihadists are right - Americans are out to take their land and destroy their religion.
~Joe
 
  • #59
Also ALL the other country's would be fine if we didn't designate our selfs to Police the world. We are alot like the Spaniards were when they first met the Aztecs! They thought they were canabls and things like that. But isnt this the same time the Black plauge was goin down due to over crowding?

The Aztecs had it figured out and were doing fine! We think these other country's need our help when allot of their culture doesn't want us to help the way we are. yea sure sending aid like MONEY and FOOD is fine, but doing what we are now isn't! People would be fine If we hadn't screwed around with Housane in the 80's and sided with him and saying we were "nuetral"
 
  • #60
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

I read that on a ratty old piece of paper somewhere.

Me too it was behind a piece of thick glass.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
The fundamental rights of US citizens are also fundamental human rights... that's one of the beautiful things about the US.

What we find to be fundamental human rights here in the U.S. do not apply to Terrorists. Remember the be-headings?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
A good christian should never have to be reminded that people remain human even when it becomes uncomfortable for us to consider them as such.

A good Christian should also never judge someone because they know God is the only judge. I never applauded or said we should torture but for the sake of the debate I raised a question.
 
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