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Thread: iPod and Limewire...

  1. #33
    Let's positive thinking! seedjar's Avatar
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    I've heard claims contrary to that - that the DVORAK keyboard doesn't require retraining to get the same words per minute out of a typist who learned on a QWERTY rig. But you may be right. Nonetheless, the QWERTY situation just goes to show that you can't simply take one factor (such as peak efficiency) to be the end-all decider of which solution is more economically sound. Even though we don't need a keyboard intentionally designed to slow typists down, it's still there because factors of industry have made it easier to continue with a less efficient solution than to transition to an optimal solution.
    This type of situation has been documented in a lot of different economic situations. The 'tragedy of the commons,' a scenario in which the most economic solution for an individual is also the least economic solution for the entire system, is one of them. Evolutionary ecology provides many other examples, such as the backwards configuration of the vertebrate eye.
    The record industry is like the oil industry. Most people can understand, when presented with the evidence, that the benefits of fossil fuels do not exceed the costs of gathering oil, processing it, and repairing environmental damage incurred. But fossil fuels still have a foothold, largely because the businesses involved have enough control over the market to prevent transitions to other energy sources. Likewise, there's a strong push to eliminate logging in many places, and even though we could replace timber with better, more economical building materials, the timber industry employs too many people to simply shut down and make way for a new paradigm. In the same way, enough capital and job specialization has been sunk into the recording industry that it won't simply yeild when a better method of distributing music and compensating artists comes around.
    ~Joe
    o//~ Livin' like a bug ain't easy / My old clothes don't seem to fit me /
    I got little tiny bug feet / I don't really know what bugs eat /
    Don't want no one steppin' on me / Now I'm sympathizin' with fleas /
    Livin' like a bug ain't easy / Livin' like a bug ain't easy... o//~

  2. #34
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    But we don’t know if those prices charged by those said companies are unnecessary price gouging, or if those money are used to buy higher level equipment, more qualified persons, etc.. I think you should refrain from such accusations that such high prices between certain studios- your argument assumes the same quality to be uniform thought companies.


    With internet downloads, it iswhatever you want was free (whenever you want it). The Internet is music consumerism run amok

    “You've lost your basic business model -- what you sell has become as free as oxygen.”

    High prices of certain studios in and of themselves are not evedence that the record label are charging exhorbitant prices.
    that makes no logic

  3. #35
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    You bring up a good point, Finch!

    I should buy the atmosphere and charge a premium for breathing

  4. #36
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    This breakdown of the cost of a typical major-label release by the independent market-research firm Almighty Institute of Music Retail shows where the money goes for a new album with a list price of $15.99.

    $0.17 Musicians' unions
    $0.80 Packaging/manufacturing
    $0.82 Publishing royalties
    $0.80 Retail profit
    $0.90 Distribution
    $1.60 Artists' royalties
    $1.70 Label profit
    $2.40 Marketing/promotion
    $2.91 Label overhead
    $3.89 Retail overhead

    Reduce the retail overhead price- 12.1$
    minus distribution and packaging/manufacturing: 10.4 $

    Cost per song on a 12-track cd at 10.4= .89 cents. SO minus everything BUT the record industry, lable, publishing royaltys, etc, its CHEPER to buy a cd per song than from the internet. See buying music from the internet RETAINS all the record industry stuff. So Dont blame the recording industry
    that makes no logic

  5. #37

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    if you guys want to download music just use Mute, its anonymous
    Z polski y dumny
    Prayer - how to do nothing and still think you're helping.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F5aCUNE4Z8
    ^^^Newest vid

  6. #38
    Let's positive thinking! seedjar's Avatar
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    Almighty Institute doesn't appear to be that independent... they're a marketing firm that works for record labels. From the first line of their web page:
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]The Almighty Institute of Music Retail provides data and services to help record labels and music retailers promote and sell more music.
    I'm not confident that their breakdown is without bias, and even if you accept it at face value, look at all the unnecessary expenses on there. We've been able to electronically disemenate music for decades now via radio and other methods - at least half of those items associated with distribution and production are totally unnecessary to actually making music and getting it to people. A lot of things on there, such as publishing royalties, are only available for the taking because labels control the cost of recording and make it too expensive for small bands to have successful runs without the captial backing of a large business.
    Also - and I'll admit this a flimsy, subjective argument - how many tracks on the average CD do you actually listen to? A lot of albums I see out there have one to three good songs, and ten to fifteen ones that aren't worth the time it takes to listen to them. What kind of value is that?
    I'll agree with you that most popular means of internet distribution are no more economical or fair, but that fact only demonstrates the degree of manipulation and overinflation that labels perpetrate on the industry. I feel comfortable blaming the industry because they're still the ones responsible for adding all these extra costs to music, whether I buy it on the internet or not.
    ~Joe
    o//~ Livin' like a bug ain't easy / My old clothes don't seem to fit me /
    I got little tiny bug feet / I don't really know what bugs eat /
    Don't want no one steppin' on me / Now I'm sympathizin' with fleas /
    Livin' like a bug ain't easy / Livin' like a bug ain't easy... o//~

  7. #39
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]totally unnecessary
    Serously? I dont work in the music biz, and neither do you, so what do we know what actually is necessary and unecessary. You cant see a whole catigory and chirp its totally unessesary to getting music out. I thinkk you are convinced that the process is simpiler than it actually is. I did ask some upperclassmen who were majoring in music marketing, including my roomate, and they said even with their knowledge, most were needed. And they know far more about the subject than i do

    And if their support isnt enough, here is what Professor James Shearer of New Mexico State University has to say about it, found Here
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]“New CDs (or cassette tapes) aren’t cheap. In fact, as of this writing, some new releases are going for as much as $17.95. There is a common line that goes something like “Boy are the record companies ripping me off, ‘cause I know it costs less than a buck to make this thing.” While it is true that it doesn’t cost much to physically produce a CD or tape, the things that lead up to that final production can be VERY expensive. For all music recorded, royalties must be paid to both the songwriter(s) and all of the contracted musicians. Typical studio time can run anywhere from $75 to $200 per hour depending on where you are and how state-of-the-art the recording facility is. The big name studios in New York, Nashville, and LA can be even more expensive. In addition, you must pay a photographer to shoot photos and hire a graphic artist (or a full art studio) to create the packaging. Next, there has to be a marketing strategy, complete with print ads, complimentary copies to radio stations, and product placement. In particular, you may not realize that the product placement in a record store COSTS the record label money. When you go walking through some major record chain like Tower Records, Virgin Records, Hastings, Camelot, or Sam Goody’s, it costs money to have your record placed at the end of a store aisle or included at one of those cool listening stations. Finally, you should also realize that the wholesale cost of a record is somewhere between $3.00 and $7.00. Then a distribution company takes its cut and, of course, the record store makes a profit as well. Now don’t get me wrong, the record industry does make money, but they don’t make $16.95 on a CD for which you paid $17.95.”
    that makes no logic

  8. #40
    Let's positive thinking! seedjar's Avatar
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    Having gone to a school where professional musicians directed our music program, and being responsible for having set up a recording studio in the A/V department, I feel like I have a decent grasp on the costs of such endeavors. This quote here doesn't quantify any of these additional expenses that we're debating the merits of, but it does mention that production costs are less than half to a sixth of sticker price on many albums, and I'm still not confident that those figures aren't biased. They certainly don't seem correct for larger (100,000+ units) runs, and fail to account for the savings that labels derive from having in-house recording and marketing departments. Even if high-profile studios charge $200 an hour, why can other recording studios afford to let time go for $35 an hour? Does it really make a difference to the listener whether their album was recorded in New York or Vancouver, BC? I doubt it.
    Also, I must object to the notion that record stores aren't part of the industry. I wouldn't be surprised if someone like Sony or Virgin owned many of these chains, and at the very least they're probably in bed together, as their businesses are so tightly intertwined.
    Still, most of what's mentioned in that article are negligible expenses. Promotional copies to radio stations? They don't even distribute those as hard copies any more - they're transmitted via the internet or other data lines - and even if they did, for a popular album to be distributed to every radio conglomerate with a station of the appropriate format, that's probably no more than 3000 copies (admittedly, that's just a guess.) The cost of such promotions are shared by all albums on a label of a certain format; labels distribute just a couple of promotions at a time as compilations of the (projected) most popular songs of various artists. I don't think it's ever the entire album - by my understanding those promotions tend to go out before the albums are even finished. Costs like photographers and artists don't have to be that high - I can tell you that much from doing advertising jobs through my high school internships - and they are largely unnecessary (plenty of albums sell very well with minimal packaging and simple adornment.)
    If I decide to grow all the plants in my nursery in solid-gold pots with a live orchestra playing 24/7 to encourage their growth, should you really pay my extra overhead just because I chose the most expensive way imaginable to produce my product? You have the option to make all of these expenditures mentioned above when making an album, but still, I'm not convinced it's really necessary to music. (As you can probably tell, I'm quite confident that it's not.) Selling records, maybe, but if you're talking about the costs of marketing records, then we're arguing two totally different topics. I'm not saying that you can outsell an efficiently produced record next to a flashy one - I'm trying to say that the marketing process is vestigial and unnecessary to the essence of music, and that music would probably be better without it. I think that albums should sell on the merit of the music they contain, and not because people feel compelled to listen to anything that the Top 40 tells them to.
    Ultimately, my point is that music piracy only hurts when artists stop concentrating on their music and try to make money selling their image. And it doesn't even seem to hurt the artists much - it's the labels themselves that are really threatened by the possibility. Music piracy seems to benefit small bands more than it hurts; the internet basically becomes free advertising for them.
    ~Joe
    o//~ Livin' like a bug ain't easy / My old clothes don't seem to fit me /
    I got little tiny bug feet / I don't really know what bugs eat /
    Don't want no one steppin' on me / Now I'm sympathizin' with fleas /
    Livin' like a bug ain't easy / Livin' like a bug ain't easy... o//~

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