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Thread: Story of how Satan came to be found in the bible?

  1. #105
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I have taught you something afterall .
    why does it matter what values this nation was founded on? Just wondering.
    that makes no logic

  2. #106
    Outsiders71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Finch @ Dec. 07 2006,1:46)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I have taught you something afterall .
    why does it matter what values this nation was founded on? Just wondering.
    I believe it is important to be truthful (as to ones knowledge) as possible. When someone comes around claiming that America was founded by secularist people, I thought it was necessary to correct them. Especially since they were using the "founding fathers were secularists" reasoning to why America shouldn't have any Judeo-Christian values.
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

  3. #107
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    No no no. It's not nonsense! According to your reasoning and your bible, it's perfectly acceptable, nay, it's real justice. You can't pick and choose the parts of the bible you like and the parts you don't like. These things are ordained by your god, and thus are good and just and fair.

    Is it REALLY nonsense? Yes. You and I both know it's nonsense, but why is it in the bible? One (me) could say the bible is nonsense. If it is nonsense why did god command it? These are god's laws. You can't dismiss them so easily. Those are REAL christian values. If you don't want a secular nation, why not put these laws into practice since they are divinely ordained?

    If you want to see a nation that follows the laws of their own god, go look at the middle eastern countries. They are working out REALLY well. One might say that the laws of the bible aren't really that different that the BS laws in countries like Iran. Stonings, beheadings, etc. are common place there. You and I are both Kaffir (sp?) to them. If we go into their town they can do with us as they wish. According to the laws of their god, which some people may say Allah and God and one and the same, they can sell us into slavery (servitude is really a better word) and it's just dandy.

  4. #108
    TheAntiLion's Avatar
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    Sigh, I leave this thread for a couple days and looks what happens

    It seems we are facing a central question of "how can there be a God who is Love, but at the same times orders executions for people in the OT, and 'throws' people into hell.? Can Love, Mercy, Forgiveness, and Justice coexist? If they can how, and does the God of the Bible display it?"

    If those are the questions that are being raised now please allow me some time to answer them, and allow me to ask other questions. These matters are very very deep, and filled with much emotion. It is hard in this subject to keep our emotions separate from our reasoning. It isn't like I haven't thought God went way too far in some situations. I've been raised in this culture too, and not the culture of the OT.

    Finally I would like to ask that those who think God issues cruel edicts and that Christianity is a system of fear to: First, take a breather. We all know that attacks get us no where, nor will anger. Second, try to think of things in context of the whole Bible. The Bible is more of a story than a set of rules. Third, realize that some things cannot be answered definitively, and please forgive us if we cannot give satisfying questions. Forth, please do not judge the whole on a few. We are all guilty of this, even I.

    I'm glade that this discussion is happening, and when I have more time to devote to this I will try my hardest to answer questions. It is finals time for me, and if you have really pressing questions just send me a PM.
    -Doug

    The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I found it&#33 but 'That's funny ...'
    -Isaac Asimov

  5. #109
    endparenthesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    I'm actually kinda liking this site. I've read 10 articles or so, and I think a lot of it is faulty, but it is good to see someone at least attempting to approach the matter rationally. I don't respect fundamentalists much, but I like theologians... the good ones put a lot of effort into ironing out all the inherent problems in their belief systems. Each worldview has at its core a number of assumptions that can never be verified, but as long as people have a logical picture of the chain of implications inherent to that assumption, they can't really be faulted. Subtle (or not so subtle) self-contradiction is where most of the problems lie in dogmas.

    This article is my favorite so far. He addresses the problems with the argument and gives credit to all the philosophers on the opposing side who would respond with, "Well, duh." I like that approach.

    For all the research and pondering he's done, he does seem to have a number of blind spots. For example in his article on "The God Delusion" he accuses Dawkins of bad intellectual tactics that he himself uses in many of his other articles. And though he agrees with scientists and philosophers on many points (being trained as a scientist I guess he must), he seems to be missing the core of the argument on many others.

    I'm also wondering about the statement: "I have surveyed the world's religions and found the biblical description of God to be most consistent with the reality of the universe." I haven't read them all but I haven't hit an article yet that suggests he has any real exposure to any non-abrahamic religions, in which case he'd be missing a whole lot.

    But, in any case, it's nice to read some arguments that are a step up from the usual ones you hear every day.

    It's a weird thing being human. You can spend an entire lifetime trying to build the best model of the universe that you possibly can, and still end up with so many holes (I haven't lived a lifetime yet, but I don't expect that I could end up any differently). It's sad that so many people, after all that hard work, only manage to build themselves a cage.

  6. #110

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    This nation actually started with two types of people. In 1607 a group of Englishmen came to make their fortunes in the new world. They established Jamestown. Many similar settlements followed. In 1620, the conservative Christians sailed over on the Mayflower. These people came up with a social contract, the Mayflower Compact, that meant provided for just and equal laws to be established and followed by the people. The Pilgrims settled at Plymouth, and they were followed by lots of Puritans.

    These settlements grew into colonies, and eventually we formed a country with a constitution based on the belief that we can all get along in spite of our differences.

    Now, about Old Testament law. This was not God's ideal society. It was only a big step in that direction. The Israelites were not ready for a hippie society. Levitical law was liberal. It was progress. The community was responsible for the actions of its members, so if a man earned the death penalty, the entire community stoned him. Also, each man was responsible for the actions of his own family and servants and animals.

    Check out Babylonian law:

    "The death penalty was freely awarded for theft, and other crimes regarded as coming under that section: for theft involving entrance of palace or temple treasury, for illegal purchase from minor or slave, for selling stolen goods or receiving the same, for common theft in the open (in default of multiple restoration) or receiving the same, for false claim to goods, for kidnapping, for assisting or harbouring fugitive slaves, for detaining or appropriating same, for brigandage, for fraudulent sale of drink, for disorderly conduct of tavern, for delegation of personal service, for misappropriating the levy, for oppression of feudal holders, for causing death of a householder by bad building. The manner of death is not specified in these cases.

    This death penalty was also fixed for such conduct as placed another in danger of death. A specified form of death penalty occurs in the following cases: gibbeting (on the spot where crime was committed) for burglary, later also for encroaching on the king's highway, for getting a slave-brand obliterated, for procuring a husband's death; burning for incest with own mother, for a vestal entering or opening a tavern, for theft at fire (on the spot); drowning for adultery, violent act of a betrothed maiden, bigamy, bad conduct as wife, seduction of a daughter-in-law."
    the cellist

  7. #111
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    Yeah, those babylonian laws were stupid, too.

    I like the Quakers...

  8. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]It's a weird thing being human. You can spend an entire lifetime trying to build the best model of the universe that you possibly can, and still end up with so many holes (I haven't lived a lifetime yet, but I don't expect that I could end up any differently). It's sad that so many people, after all that hard work, only manage to build themselves a cage.
    I like that!
    the cellist

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