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Thread: What do you think?

  1. #17
    nepenthes_ak's Avatar
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    lol I live in a rural town... a Taxi would cost just as much as they paid for the weed! thats just to get the taxi!

    Ive used Salvia just cause its legall... its an interesting drug.

  2. #18
    endparenthesis's Avatar
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    I'm with joossa, mostly. If I had a kid, I would feel like I was committing child abuse by being permissive about having that kind of thing in my house.

    In the sentence, "I never really got my life together until I ___ doing drugs," I don't think I've ever heard or read of someone using the word "started". Plenty, possibly millions, would enthusiastically use the word "stopped."

    That alone should say volumes, but it seems to go ignored by a lot of people.

    I don't personally know whether these substances should be legal or not. I don't know where lines should be drawn. But I do know that drugs (I'm not talking about hemp and poppies, but the actual chemicals being abused) are just not worth the damage they help society inflict upon itself. Not remotely. There is no justification for their existence. And yes, I'm including nicotine and alcohol in this list.

    People go back and forth about personal freedoms and right and wrong and whatever else in drug debates, and all the while they're missing the most important point: that drugs are totally unnecessary in a healthy life. Their risk/reward ratio is abysmal. Does such wanton self-absorption really get you where you want to be?

    By the way, JLAP, shamans are in a small minority in using drugs for spiritual practices. Most spiritual disciplines, exoteric and esoteric alike, teach at length about how drugs are a hindrance to self-mastery.

  3. #19
    nepenthes_ak's Avatar
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    They are their for a reason, Its personal decision just as you make the choice to NOT do them and make the personal decision to say that they shouldn't be around or used at all. Its Some ones decision weather or not they want to smoke drink, or get high.

    Here in Ohio, They passed a law against Public smoking, Cant walk down the street no designated smoking areas, you have to be at home to smoke, or in youre car, I think about the car thing. thursday is when this takes effect. So is that Its the governments choice to intervene in some ones choices in life?

    So how about gay marriage? Should that Be allowed? Its their life choice isn't it? Theirs no difference between some one who wants to get high, weather they abuse it or not, or if some one wants to get married to the same sex! Its their choice!

    Along with the healthy life, do you think The government should go around wheighing people saying they are TOO fat? Or let them choose the food they eat and get fatter and fatter? Should People choose to ruin their body's, and know they are doing bad to it and feel content or w/e they feel? Its not the governments decision to make them get skinny or fat! That is a personal Life choice!

    Its the land off freedom but we cant smoke tobacco out side any more, we cant choose who we "love".

    Its time for the Country to grow out of the way it has been and realize it cant stay the same!

  4. #20
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    I don't think I started living until I experimented. I was always a goody-two-shoes sheep who followed the crowd. I'm much happier without the wool pulled over my eyes. I've seen and heard things beyond my own comprehension. Hell, once I lost my ego, my EGO for three days straight. Drugs can be life changing. Positive or negative.



    I don't think drug use hurts society. I think drug ABUSE hurts it. I say legalize everything and let the weak people kill themselves if they can't control themselves. I don't really have a problem with the 4th paragraph since you included alcohol. I commend you very highly for that! Many people so easily "forget" about alcohol.

    "People go back and forth about personal freedoms and right and wrong and whatever else in drug debates, and all the while they're missing the most important point: that drugs are totally unnecessary in a healthy life."

    So is and junk food and the internet and TV and and carnivorous plants and dogs and cats and hair products. It's these unnecessary items that make life worth living! Am I saying drugs make life worth living? Absolutely not! I'd be messed up if I said that! Once I heard something like "If we gave up all the things that make life worth living we could live forever".

    risk/reward ratio? Lets please not generalize. With Meth or Crack or Heroin, I can agree in most cases. Depends on the individual, IMO. I don't agree when it comes to esoteric drugs and weed and in most cases alcohol. I don't think I'm self-absorbed. I'm where I want to be. I get straight a's and b's, i'm about to start AP college classes early, and I have a great family life. Guess what? I still use drugs. Sure, given the situation (homeschool) they can be hard to come by, but i get them and you don't see me overdosing on heroin the next day. Personally, I don't see the problem. i'm not hurting anyone.

    Shamans, NA's, hippies, psychonauts ; just because they aren't everywhere doesn't mean their beliefs are any less credible than yours or mine. There are far more modern "shamans" than you'd expect.

    Hell, maybe i'm some weird exception to the rule. Wouldn't be the first time i've heard it, although I don't think so lol



    In the end, it's personal choice. Just because you say theres no justification for their existance does not make it so. At the same time one could say there's no reason anything exists at all. There is no purpose in life except to reproduce. Call me a hedonist if you want, but my goal in life is to make money, have fun, and enjoy my life because all of our days are numbered.

  5. #21
    endparenthesis's Avatar
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    I'm remembering why I usually try to bite my tongue in drug convos. But there is one thing I feel I should bring up.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I don't think I started living until I experimented. I was always a goody-two-shoes sheep who followed the crowd. I'm much happier without the wool pulled over my eyes. I've seen and heard things beyond my own comprehension. Hell, once I lost my ego, my EGO for three days straight. Drugs can be life changing. Positive or negative.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Shamans, NA's, hippies, psychonauts ; just because they aren't everywhere doesn't mean their beliefs are any less credible than yours or mine. There are far more modern "shamans" than you'd expect.
    The spiritual disciplines I mentioned look down on drugs not because they don't understand altered states, but because there are better ways to achieve them.

    I mentioned in a thread on depression which I think you posted in too that most medications are extremely imprecise. Side effects are common and expected because medicine is basically a carpet bomb. When working properly the body can send the right compounds exactly where they need to go in exactly the right dosages, whereas medicine usually just sends them everywhere in a flood. For example a medication meant to encourage healthy production of a neurotransmitter in one place might create a side effect by interfering with the production of that neurotransmitter somewhere else (which was being produced perfectly before the medication showed up). When the side effects typically make you much less ill than the original disease does, the medicine becomes a "success". This isn't meant to bash modern medicine, which has made amazing leaps... just to be realistic about how it currently measures up to the body's own systems.

    I'm mentioning this because it's the same with drugs. They're a flood of foreign chemicals that impede the body's ability to give you the perspective you desire, not enhance it. One doesn't need psychedelics to reach useful states in spiritual work. With practice and training and discipline someone can learn to experience things that can't be achieved with drugs nearly as effectively. The difference between the two is like the difference between noise and music.

    So those disciplines reject drugs because they see them as a sloppy, primitive, and inferior way to achieve a goal. They would tell you that you're missing out on genuine, natural, mind-blowing experiences of transcendence by taking the shortcut that drugs appear to offer. Taking the easy road and "following the crowd" are essentially synonymous... in this case I agree that it's something you should avoid doing.

    Unfortunately drug culture has latched on to the stories of shamans using peyote and ayahuasca and such and spun them in their quests for justification. They fancy themselves to be keeping traditions alive, but your average tribal shaman would see these pop-shamans as oblivious tourists. Hallucinating regularly does not a shaman make, no matter how philosophical one gets about it. Shamanic journeys usually involve decades of training and include hardships that appear so masochistic they'd make us sick to our stomachs.

    Incidentally there's no such thing as a modern shaman. "Shaman" is an anthropological label describing a person filling a certain role within a "primitive" tribal structure (which might be Native American, Australian Aborigine, whatever). Shamans don't call themselves that... they are called that. So there are shamans alive today, but they aren't "modern." Yeah, it's a nitpick... just another reason the pop-shamans need to find another name for themselves.

  6. #22
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    No reason to bit your tongue man, I'm not mad or anything lol.

    I agree with you that yes there are better, natural ways to achieve altered states. Drugs are a shortcut. That's why they are recreational.

    the shaman thing was just an example, And I guess maybe a bad one. These days "pop-shamans" call themselves psychonauts.

    "I'm mentioning this because it's the same with drugs. They're a flood of foreign chemicals that impede the body's ability to give you the perspective you desire, not enhance it. One doesn't need psychedelics to reach useful states in spiritual work. With practice and training and discipline someone can learn to experience things that can't be achieved with drugs nearly as effectively. The difference between the two is like the difference between noise and music."

    I agree with that 150%

    I've had the natural altered states and the artificial. I used to practice astral projection and the effects of it were just the same a full blown-trip, but more exciting. I just don't feel like meditation for 2 hours in hopes that i'll achieve an astral projection, which for me is like a 1 is 50 chance. Is it more rewarding? IMO, yes, and the more you practice it the better it gets and the longer you are out. Is it easy? Nope. I suppose looking for instant gratification is part of the western culture.

    Lol, please don't get the wrong Idea that i'm mad or don't like you or anything. I enjoy these discussions and think your opinion is valuable and you are a great person!

  7. #23
    Cardiac Nurse JB_OrchidGuy's Avatar
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    Endparenthases. Have you had an anatomy course? Do you know how the body moves things and communicates? Because your explanation about the body being able to target and meds being more of a carpet bomb affect is a little off. True the body is the ultimate at targeting certain areas, but it still uses the carpet bomb affect drugs use to work and communicate.

    See the body uses hormones and other compounds to communicate. These hormones and compounds are folded in a certain molecular way to fit into a certain receptor on certain cells. The reason drugs are not as precise yet is because the chemicals molecular folding fits into many different receptors. The body still floods itself with the chemical messenger it is using. Unless it is hard wired in with a nerve. Then it uses electric pulses.

    I do agree that you should have been punished for allowing them to smoke at you mothers house. No matter how much I am for legalized pot. The fact still remains pot is illegal. It is one thing to jeopardize your criminal record. It is another to unwillingly jeopardize your mothers criminal history. I am not sure the severity of "contributing to the delinquency of a minor". Regardless it is not a good one to have on the record. Now had you asked and she said yes then to me that would have been fine. I don't think it is child abuse to allow it. I am not sure the ages, but I feel 17/18 years of age to be the min.

    I am not going to go into how it was made illegal here. Even though I will say it was racial and job security motivated. IIRC
    JB
    Friend me on facebook with JB_orchidguy@yahoo.com.
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  8. #24
    endparenthesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (JB_OrchidGuy @ Dec. 05 2006,12:44)]Endparenthases. Have you had an anatomy course? Do you know how the body moves things and communicates? Because your explanation about the body being able to target and meds being more of a carpet bomb affect is a little off. True the body is the ultimate at targeting certain areas, but it still uses the carpet bomb affect drugs use to work and communicate.

    See the body uses hormones and other compounds to communicate. These hormones and compounds are folded in a certain molecular way to fit into a certain receptor on certain cells. The reason drugs are not as precise yet is because the chemicals molecular folding fits into many different receptors. The body still floods itself with the chemical messenger it is using. Unless it is hard wired in with a nerve. Then it uses electric pulses.
    I had to do a couple papers on mind/body medicine, so my information might automatically be suspect to many people (and I'm rusty on the details now), but there was much said about the level of sophistication in targeting problem areas very specifically in ways people are still trying to understand, sometimes even to the extent that some cells outside the problem area with the exact same receptors went somehow uneffected (implying that the messenger never made it there). But again, I'm extremely fuzzy on the specifics. A lot of the info came from Deepak Chopra, who people have very mixed feelings on, but whatever people think of him he is a trained endocrinologist, so he knows a bit about hormones. Way more than I do of course.

    You're right, I misspoke and don't mean to imply that "flooding" is never used by the body... just that the effects themselves are usually impressively localized. Thank you for adding the extra detail.

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