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"new" interpertation of endangerd species act

  • Thread starter Finch
  • Start date
  • #41
mountain lions declined due to a bounty being oun their head.............wolves were wiped out long, long before cougars started making a comeback..........

there was no reason to introduce wolves(which dont understand boundries. Theodore Roosevelt State park in ND has an over population of elk at the moment, their solution? allow limited hunting..............seems the solution Teddy Roosevelt would even applaud.......
 
  • #42
But wolves do understand the necessity for staying in areas where they can be supported, i.e. food supply. Why let people hunt when we can reintroduce animals that have been endangered. It seems to be a win-win situation in my opinion. I would rather give underrepresented populations the opportunity to grow than allow humans to go in and do population control with guns. Nature will balance itself out in the best way possible, instead of us trying to figure it out ourselves.

xvart.
 
  • #43
I never said that wolves caused an initial delcine in ML. The comeback was helped along by the absance of wolves. Grizily bears and mountain lions benefit from wolves absence...

allowing a natural balance is the best solution, plus because the animals do no understand boundries, they can contrl overpopulation elsewhere... hunting, weather deer or snowgeese or elk, does not always provide population control. Just look at deer, snowgeese, and elk!!
 
  • #44
my point is gray wolves arent endangered..................by reintroducing them to Yellowstone you opent the current can of worms.....wolves are multiplying fast and expanding their range into areas where they get into trouble and yah have to shoot the wolves...........makes more damn sence to just let some hunters in to fill their freezers................its going to take decades for the wolf situation to reach equilibrium if it ever will at all............large preditors and man do not mix..........best leave them up north where they have alot of room. dropping them in Yellowstone close the highest densities of ppl they possibly could in Montana, Wyoming or Idaho.................
 
  • #45
No grey wolves are not endangerd. Large predators and man can mix, you just dont want to, so everyone wants to control the levels they think "should" be.

Since man controls the land now, i guess its time youd better be getting along and mixing now... i understand there are programs in place to repay any stock lost to predators... and its not like a healthy wolf is a threat to your life.....
 
  • #46
deer over population is generally in areas that arent big on hunting, usually back east around larger population centers........in the west its MUCH less a issue.........the only places elk are over populated are in parks where hunting isnt allowed................where hunting is allowed they are thriving but only occationally need extra control measures(damage hunts)

a good example of why i have problems with the Fish and Game departments in the USA is when they started reintroducing elk to the various plains states.......instead of rentroducing the Manitoban Elk (Cervus elaphus manitobensis) which at one time was native there they introduced the Rocky Mountain Elk (Cervus elaphus nelsoni) which was not native to the region.........it would have been simple enough to get the Manatoban from herds in Minnisota but instead took Rocky Mountains from Colorado, Wyoming and Montana.......yep these geniuses are great ppl to be put incharge of reintroducing large preditors................
 
  • #47
the essencial ingredient in large preditors and man mixing is few ppl..............the area around Yellowstone has alot of ppl compared to other areas in the region..........hell Glacier would have made more sence................
 
  • #48
You know what I am tired of every few months typing out all the reasons that bush is the evil person that he is.
I have a great idea Oz, just copy and paste your reasons for hating Busch into "word".
Then, after the next presidential election you can simply change the name to either Hillary or Obama. :-))
 
  • #49
........in the west its MUCH less a issue


..... Where there are also large predators still remaining. And have you seen many areas of the east? To assume the west has a monopoly on hunting is a mistake.

the only places elk are over populated are in parks where hunting isnt allowed................where hunting is allowed they are thriving but only occationally need extra control measures

That I know for a fact is not true.
And elk has recorded overpopulation in many areas of the west. You just dont hear about it as much because its not in areas big in reserchers and nature watchers! And what hunters think is a good population level, it is not the same as what the habitat can safely support. Many game animals are managed at artificially kept at high population numbers. Hunters may call that 'thriving' but if elk is all they see, they cannot be relied on for the whole story!


good example of why i have problems with the Fish and Game departments in the USA is when they started reintroducing elk to the various plains states.......instead of rentroducing the Manitoban Elk (Cervus elaphus manitobensis) which at one time was native there they introduced the Rocky Mountain Elk (Cervus elaphus nelsoni) which was not native to the region.........it would have been simple enough to get the Manatoban from herds in Minnisota but instead took Rocky Mountains from Colorado, Wyoming and Montana.......yep these geniuses are great ppl to be put incharge of reintroducing large preditors................

Lets talk about they great way the hunters have managed population levels?

How about the turky reintroduction?? When the Eastern Wild Turkey (Meleagris gallopavo silvestris) vanished from much of its range from overhunting, they reintroduced the turky- only insted of the Eastern, they used the Rio Grande (M. g. intermedia) subspecies.

Only since they were hunters, these birdbrains didnt give a damn which was native and wich was not they just wanted to bring something up to shoot again. And these people want to be responsible for regulating the hunting of large carnivores, in adition to their big game mis-management? I think not...
 
  • #50
Neither of you are going to win this debate. I hope you both realize this :)

So now we have 3 things that you can't win arguments with. Religion, Politics, and apparently the conservation status of M. g. intermedia (Which is clearly inferior to the native Meleagris gallopavo silvestris). :-))

Rattler, I hope you shoot anything your heart desires as long as it's in season. Finch, I hope one day you and a tree (and/or bunny) will fall in love and live happily ever after.

Lmao, you guys crack me up lol. I get a kick out of it :-O
 
  • #51
Neither of you are going to win this debate. I hope you both realize this

dude we realized this about a year ago......................doesnt take away the fun of it :grin:

Finch.......................if your not happy with the regular hunters managing and i cant see where the guberment agencies have done any better what are we left with?
 
  • #52
i cant see where the guberment agencies have done any better

True. The government has a history of mis-managing the populations as well. Of course, we all have ideas on how they should be managed. I feel many populations are managed not for the serious hunter, but for the hunter who doesn’t want to have to walk very far to find a trophy buck. You know the type. I think hunters manage most populations quite well, ducks in particular are very well done, with habitat enrichment and such. I am less impressed with large game management - but then again, the populations without predators can be problematic.

And I know Yellowstone allowed limited hunting on bison; I assume they have hunting on elk too.


Its just with the wolves, in not shure who loses. The elk had to put up with much fiercer predators than the wolf in the past, so they are not going anywhere. If a wolf goes for cattle, it will be shot and the rancher paid the full value of the cattle.




(when faced with a big introduced species, some think contraceptives is the key, but i for one think the best solution is a nice rile. takes care of the 'problem' nicely! *kill the goats...KILL)
 
  • #53
And I know Yellowstone allowed limited hunting on bison; I assume they have hunting on elk too

the hunting is not IN Yellowstone. Montana and Wyoming decided to allow the shooting of some that wonder out of the park......there is no hunting in the park
 
  • #54
Very interesting discussion between Finch & Rattler. Do you guys charge for tickets?

Finch with research & facts....

Rattler with strong feelings ....
 
  • #55
hey i produced facts as well :grin:
 
  • #56
It's OK, I'm sure Finch has some feelings too.
 
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