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Thread: all i can say is...............WOW.........

  1. #49
    Av8tor1's Avatar
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    "Colonialism" runs on both sides, the Ottoman empire lasted for centuries (until the end of WW1) . Following the conquest of Constantinople in 1453, the Ottoman Empire entered a long period of conquest and expansion, extending its borders deep into Europe and North Africa

    Primarily it was the technological advancements in British shipping and industry that put into check this aggressiveness during the 17th and 18th centuries, motivated in part due to it's own survival

    In fact during WW1 the Ottoman Empire dealt a major blow to the "Commonwealth" nations at Gallipoli, a battle which is near and dear to the hearts of all ANZACs to this day

    ( I have an original 1916 1st edition copy of the "ANZAC Book" written by the Australian/NZ soldiers while in the trenches at Gallipoli, sorry... just proud of it, a very prized possession LOL)

    the sins of man know no borders, no one religion...every culture is just as guilty at some point in its history

    Av

  2. #50
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    So if a culture does not put a great emphasis on science and instead emphasis on spirituality and their fate in the afterlife that makes them backwards?

    Who said that> i never even said that they were less advanced. I never said that. Dont put words in my mouth


    What makes a belief in science superior to an emphasis on spirituality. Just because science is more important in your life doesnt mean it should be in everyones life.

    I am spiritual too. I never said that either. People choose their own way thats fine.

    Its one of my pet peeves when people put words in my mouth that i never said. Please, stop.

    ALL I WAS TRYING TO SAY was that the west is not keeping the Arab culture down in science. Secondly, yes Jordan is very relatively advanced in the sciences

    The fact that they spend a large portion of their incomes on weapons development
    Did you look at the statistics i gave? They spend a vanishingly small portion of their incomes on any form of research, weapons or otherwise.... now militarization, is another story. The west is partially responcible for the militarization and arms race, but not for wepon reserch funding.

    Saudi Arabia isnt the only country out there doing this. So is Syria, Pakistan, Egypt and many countries not directly supported by the US do the same thing. The

    Most Arab societies, not just Saudi Arabia, are run by dictatorships that practice different levels of censorship on their citizens.

    It is the Middle Eastern governments fault. The US has meddled directly in several ME countries, but not be a long shot all of them so directly. If the US stops backing Saudi Arabia right now, they are strong enough to keep control without our governments support.

    Most higher scientific institutions in Arab countries are run by governments, which, in undemocratic systems, means that their goals actually are more political than scientific. This mode of governance reflects unfavorably on many aspects of academic life, rendering scientific merit and research of little importance for career advancement and precluding any genuine evaluation of the scientific performance of these institutions. Lack of high-quality research by faculty members, in turn, limits training opportunities for students and hinders the development of the very organizational structures that would support the growth of research capacity. This has turned most Arab universities merely into centers for knowledge dissemination, not for questioning, criticism, and an authentic search for new knowledge.
    ? Also I would like to see the science spending of other former colonial countries freed around WWII vs. the middle east. I imagine they would not be fairly similar
    I fear that no such list exists, however, there is no reason why they should still be giving substandard funding. Especially the middle east, with its wealth. India is a country that was released arond WWII and its spending is at or above what western nations spend..

    The sources of the statistics i gave are

    Al-Khader, Saudi Med. J. 25, 1323 (2004).
    Massod, Nature 416, 120 (2002).
    O. Tadmouri, N. Bissar-Tadmouri, Lancet 362, 1766 (2003).
    that makes no logic

  3. #51

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    Finch I was not implying you said any of that. Infact the only part of my post which pertains directly to you has your name infront of it. It bothers me when people assume everything stated is directed at them. There are other people in this conversation so dont assume everything is directed at you.

    Also your stats on research appear to only the biomedical field not weapons research or any other field unless I am reading them wrong. Saudi Arabia was only used as an example of one of the countries that has these problems, not as the only one. Also their government is very unpopular with the people and would face some serious challenges if the US gov't pulled their support. (Pakistan is also not middle eastern nor Arab, so they are likely not included in your stats, just as Iran may not be as they are Persian)

    As for India it did not suffer under inept rulers apointed by the western powers during the mandate period so its a poor example. Now if you look at Africa it has many of the same conditions after WWII. Inept rulers appointed by western powers, artificial borders drawn up by the west, lack of development under colonialism, ect.

    Av- The Ottoman empire was not ruled by Arabs nor Middle Easterns but was controlled by Turks (Seljuks) from central Asia not the middle east. Also the effects of Ottoman colonialism did not have as great an effect on the Middle East as did western colonalism. I am not arguing that one country was a better colonial occupier but only that western colonalism has had a very negative effect on the Middle East.

    One last thing, people keep using Arab, Muslim, and Middle Eastern interchangably which they are not. Please try to use the correct word to describe the people or region you are refering to.
    "We're terrible animals. I think that the Earth's immune system is trying to get rid of us, as well it should." - Kurt Vonnegut

  4. #52
    Av8tor1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktulu View Post
    ...Now if you look at Africa it has many of the same conditions after WWII. Inept rulers appointed by western powers, artificial borders drawn up by the west, lack of development under colonialism, ect.

    Av- The Ottoman empire was not ruled by Arabs nor Middle Easterns but was controlled by Turks (Seljuks) from central Asia not the middle east. Also the effects of Ottoman colonialism did not have as great an effect on the Middle East as did western colonalism. I am not arguing that one country was a better colonial occupier but only that western colonalism has had a very negative effect on the Middle East.

    One last thing, people keep using Arab, Muslim, and Middle Eastern interchangably which they are not. Please try to use the correct word to describe the people or region you are refering to.
    Ktulu, if it had not been for those western powers during WWII I believe most of Africa and the Middle East, if not the world would have been ruled by Adolf Hitler..

    and I never said the Ottoman Empire was Arab or anything else for that matter, toady the region is a result of that colonialism and it's effects, now if we could go back and ask someone who lived prior to these events how they viewed the changes to that region resulting from the Ottoman Empire and Islam I am sure they would say the same thing you are saying now about western colonialism..

    there is no pure culture, we are all results of colonialism and its effects, history is always written by the victorious,

    map of the ottoman empire...

  5. #53
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    So if a culture does not put a great emphasis on science and instead emphasis on spirituality and their fate in the afterlife that makes them backwards? What makes a belief in science superior to an emphasis on spirituality. Just because science is more important in your life doesnt mean it should be in everyones life.
    Since i was the one who brought up science, i assumed it was directed a me... it was not an unreasonable conclusion. Others simply said more "advanced" whatever that means
    The emergence of a Saudi state began in central Arabia in 1744. A regional ruler, Muhammad bin Saud, joined forces with a cleric, Muhammad Abd Al-Wahhab, to create a new political entity. This alliance formed in the 18th Century remains the basis of Saudi Arabian dynastic rule today. Over the next 150 years, the fortunes of the Saud family rose and fell several times as Saudi rulers contended with Egypt, the Ottoman Empire, and other Arabian families for control on the peninsula. The Saudi state was founded by the late King Abdul Aziz Al-Saud (known internationally as Abdul Aziz bin Saud).

    The west did not appoint any of the original rulers of saudia arabia nor have they ever been appinted by the west. The dynastic rule of saudia arabia did not originate nor was it appointed by western powers so it is not fair to blame the west for their ruler's shortcomings in the funding departement

    As for funding, the
    annual spending on research and development in Arab countries is estimated at 0.15% of their gross domestic product (GDP)
    involves all forms of reserch, not just medical.
    that makes no logic

  6. #54
    Lauderdale's Avatar
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    Ktulu, Translate your signature for me.
    حرّرت فلسطين

  7. #55

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    AV- again I am not arguing one colonial occupier is better than another. I am saying that the effects of the Ottoman empire on the modern condition of the Middle East is not nearly as important as the powers of Western Europe as colonial occupiers. In fact I see little relevance in bring up the Ottoman empire in this discussion. Yes they were in the region but so were the Romans, the Mongols, etc, and they were not mentioned.

    Finch- I still don't see how you could assume that was directed at you when a few lines latter I specifically name you. As for the Saudi ruling family the west propped them up and even gave them control of Mecca and Medina after WWI thereby legitimizing their rule when they could just as easily have thrown them out. plus many of my comments about them are from more recent times. I am more familiar with their current administration and its unpopularity with Saudi people. The current power structure in that country in my opinion exists only because the West continues to support it.

    Lauderdale- My signature would translate along the lines of "Liberate Palestine". I support a free and independent Palestinian state, though this would be a whole new subject I dont want to dive into in this post as its way off topic.
    "We're terrible animals. I think that the Earth's immune system is trying to get rid of us, as well it should." - Kurt Vonnegut

  8. #56
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    I JUST finished American history and if there's anything that gave me a headache it's the conflict between the PLO and the Isreali's lol. Isreal has no right no exist, they stole their country from the Palistinians. It's BS and no one in their right mind can support that sort of theft.

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