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Thread: Church learns Vet was gay, cancels memorial

  1. #57
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    Wow, I go to sleep and I see all this in the morning

    You keep repeating this over and over, how wouldn't your RIGHTS be equal?
    They would, but we would not be equal. Do I have to go back to the case of racial segregation yet again? Really? Can you still not understand how the world "marriage" is not the same word as "Civil union"? Let's use an analogy, shall we? If a marriage is a high school diploma, a civil union is a GED. Can you see now? Do you get it? Can you not understand how we will not be equal even if we have the same rights, until it's called marriage? I'm talking until I'm blue in the face, yet you just don't seem to get it.



    How can you debate that homosexuality isn't a sin? If God didn't make us able to be gay then how would we have free will? It's the same with being a murder, or pedophile or anything... you can choose to do it. If I wanted to go out right now and start a homosexual relationship with some buff guy I could but I choose not to. Science is a great tool but it trumps nothing when it comes to the big questions, the ones that really matter.
    I did not wake up and say "I want to be gay!" In fact, I spent a few years in denial and wishing I was straight. No one in their right mind would choose to have a harder life. A gay person can choose to have sex or not, but he/she can't choose what to feel. You could absolutely go have a relationship with a dude. Of course you can! But nothing in this world would make you attracted to him. This is what it's about, don't you get it yet? It's not about sex.


    This country was built on Christian/Judea principals.
    And you're still wrong. Many atheists have the same principals as religion such as honesty and not stealing, for example. That doesn't mean squat.


    Find me a Christian that denies homosexuality as a sin. I'd say all Christians love homosexuals the same as heterosexuals, just as we are commanded to love the murders, the thieves, the rapists etc. We love everyone as our neighbor but that does not mean homosexuality, murdering, stealing and raping isn't a sin.
    Jay Bakker's the first that comes to mind. There are actually forums for gay Chrisians, too.


    A deity is not the same as the name "God". Religious principals aren't the same as Christian principals. Religious just means religious, not Christian. Are you proposing you want to make Vegas wedding illegal, too, outsiders? You're kidding, right? As far as marriage being left up to the churches, I'd be happy as a clam if that were to happen. If the government said "we don't want anything to do with this anymore. Let the churches deal with it" I'd happy. The problem is, the state regulates marriage licenses.



    Rampuppy, first I'll say I'm sorry you don't support us. Secondly, what's with the uterus talk? Why do people assume it's all about sex? This is a stereotype that homosexuals are overly promiscuous and all we do is have sex all day long. It's NOT about sex! We don't care that we can't have children. Our bodies are different but our LOVE is the SAME love as a man and a woman can share. As far as "one nation under God" , It wasn't there originally I don't believe. And His name should be taken off our currency, too.

    I was thinking, if most Christians think the world is going to hell in a hand basket soon, and Jesus is coming back soon, why not vote to speed things up a little? Then we'd all be happy as hell. I also don't understand why everyone can't be secular. Look at me. I have my cake and eat it, too! I get to believe in God and have a relationship with Christ, I just don't like to yap about it unless it's in a conversation like this! Sure, the majority of people are Christian. Guess what? Most of that majority is secular. Even the people I know who go to church, are secular. It's fabulous.

    Outsiders, in all seriousness, and I'm not trying to be snarky or anything. I have trouble comprehending how someone as young as you can think the things you do, the way you do. You're a very unique individual, no matter what our differences, and I can say that honestly.






    Well, see ya. I have to go meet with my compatriots about the secret gay agenda.

  2. #58
    Doing it wrong until I do it right. xvart's Avatar
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    RamPuppy, I agree with your analysis of the founding fathers and their ideologies; but,

    Quote Originally Posted by RamPuppy View Post
    I have not done a serious study of it, but i would be willing to bet that even looking at the deists of the founding fathers that i would find few, if any principles that contradicted christianity.
    (and maybe I'm reading too much into your statement) but just because principles are the same does not mean that they can be labeled as one (christian) or the other (deist). If anything it further establishes that some principles are more fundamental than any religion and just "good practice." Despite my religious views, just because I believe that I shouldn't kill someone does not automatically make me a christian. We just share the same opinion on the subject of murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outsiders71 View Post
    Science is a great tool but it trumps nothing when it comes to the big questions, the ones that really matter.
    Science is a great tool, but, it is a tool that usefulness cannot be turned on and off based on the user's personal ideologies.

    As for civil unions and marriages: if there are churches that will (and are allowed) to perform marriages to gay couples then what's the big deal? Marriage is fine, but it sounds like the regiously sanctioned marriage should not hold the governmental credence of tax benefits and all the other goodies that I am afforded for being fortunate enough to be born with an attraction to women.

    The best course of action would be to remove all the benefits of marriage as associated with marriage and make "civil union" paperwork for everyone gay, straight, or otherwise. I mean, seriously, when I got married I had to go to the courthouse, not the church, to make it official. God and religion didn't officially approve my heterosexual marriage in that courthouse; Bertha behind the counter with her rubber stamp allowed me all the privileges and all the benefits and made it official.

    "Marriage" is just a term. If the church or religious organization you belong to does not allow you to get "married" and celebrate your life and your love for another then you are probably belong to the wrong church. I guarantee that there are plenty of churches and religious groups that would allow gay people to get married, must of which will share the exact same ideology as the churches that would not grant a marriage to gay couples. They are just a little more forward thinking. Of course, this presupposes that the government does not interfere and say "gay couples can't get married, period."

    xvart.
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    "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

  3. #59
    Capslock's Avatar
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    Mokele, you saved me at least an hour this morning. It had to be said.

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  4. #60
    Outsiders71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    I don't recall that one, but we've had Presidents who didn't believe in Jesus's divinity. Taft, IIRC, was Unitarian and stated that much about his beliefs.
    Who was making the claim that everyone who was President believed in Jesus? Irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    Why not? In spite of religion's claims of static, universal truth, the policies of all faiths have changed drastically over time, with racial policies being a prime example. Many Christian churches (not just a few splinter groups) endorsed slavery, and easily supported it by pointing to passages in the Bible.

    The important thing is divesting God's message and love from the messages and rules that were added by those serving as God's imperfect messengers. We've discarded the Biblical sanctions of slavery as mere products of the time it was written, so why should we consider the rules on homosexuality any different?
    The slavery of the Bible is different than the slavery of the South. Today the slavery of the Bible is related to today's debt (credit cards, loans, etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    Separate but equal, eh? If you don't want marriage to be a civil right, then abandon all civil recognition of it. As long as there is a government sanctioned 'marriage', separate cannot and will not be equal. Or have you forgotten the lessons learned via segregation.
    No one suggested making seperate water fountains and bathrooms for homosexuals. Linking homosexuality to the AA civil rights movement is weak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    Wrong. You couldn't start a homosexual relationship, assuming you're not closeted. You'd never be able to get it up, pardon my frankness. It's a purely physiological response, with no inherent moral quantity.
    Oh really, then your claiming that there has never been a gay man who's been with a woman before? Oh and your claiming that bisexuals don't exist either right? Or transsexuals? Right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    Furthermore, I take offer to you even putting it in the same category as murder or pedophilia, and if you do so again, I will ask that the Mods warn you for it. Homosexuality harms *NOONE*, other than a few bigots who can't pull their heads out of the 14th century.
    If your ignorant enough to report me to the mods because I classified homosexuality as a sin, just like murder, rape and stealing then go right ahead, we'll see how far you get with that .

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    Why should I be forced to accept your definition of it? How about I force you to accept mine, whether you like it or not.
    Maybe because the definition has historical and religious meaning that has co-existed longer than the current liberalizing west society of today?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    The day marriage became a legally recognized concept is the day you lost any control over who gets to say what it means. Either remove all legal aspects and make it purely religious, or accept that you cannot dictate to others how to live.
    I can't dictate to others how to live but they can dictate to me? Sorry that just doesn't make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    Wrong. See above. See any sort of history. Read a book that doesn't feature magical cloud-gods. You may learn something.
    Oh really. That's interesting, I will ask my professors to quit using those dang cloud god books.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor..._organizations

    Enjoy the reading. Oh, and no "No true Scotsman" fallacy - if they worship Jesus, they're christian, no matter how much you disagree with them.
    WRONG. Since you obviously lack expertise in this field let me tell you something. To be a Christian is to be a follower of Jesus Christ. Doing anything that doesn't agree with the teachings of Christ is a cult. Look that one up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    So you think infertile couples shouldn't marry? Or what about seniors who find love in their 70's? Or what about my fiancee and I who simply do not want a child both for personal reasons and because we don't want to contribute to the overpopulation problem?
    I just wanted to thank you and your fiance for defeating the overpopulation problems of the world. Way to go guys!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    Gay people can adopt.

    Your claim is just plain stupid. You claim it's about having biological kids, then make an excuse for adoption, but since gays can adopt, you turn around and go back to claiming some magical bull**** about kids. You're a hypocrite merely looking for an excuse to justify your own homophobic bigotry.
    Your a bigot for thinking that homosexuality should produce children in the first place. It takes two different accessories last time I checked and there's a good reason for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    I bet if you'd been born 100 years ago, you'd be saying that about giving women the vote.

    I'll make it simple for you: Because it's discrimination based solely on hate.
    That's all you hear from the extremist left that we're bigots and haters. Yes we're just so full of hate for everyone. Yeah we discriminate, that's what we're all about. All you can do is point the finger and flame. Come up with something better please it's weak![/QUOTE]
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

  5. #61

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    The slavery of the Bible is different than the slavery of the South. Today the slavery of the Bible is related to today's debt (credit cards, loans, etc.).
    Are you kidding me? While I do not at all agree with linking the case of homosexuals to the case of blacks during racial discrimination, that claim is ridiculous. How was the slavery different? In both cases people were forced to work fields among many other things against their will. Sounds the same to me. I also don't think Jesus had a Visa, so I don't know how some nomads living in the middle of nowhere 2000 years ago could know about credit card debt and make an awful analogy to it.

    If your ignorant enough to report me to the mods because I classified homosexuality as a sin, just like murder, rape and stealing then go right ahead, we'll see how far you get with that .
    I find it hilarious that someone that believes in a fairy tale and denies scientific fact has the tenacity to call someone else ignorant. Lots of ideas in the bible have been discarded as a product of time. I bet you've disobeyed your parents before, so I guess you wouldn't mind if I get some people together to come stone you to death, right? If you think homosexuality is a sin, time to stop being a caveman and realize that its 2007.

    Maybe because the definition has historical and religious meaning that has co-existed longer than the current liberalizing west society of today?
    So just because an idea has been around a long time, that automatically makes it right? I guess its ok to beat women then in your mind. I guess Odinism, which predates Christianity by about 2000 years is really the right religion, simply because its been around so long. Odinism doesn't even mention homosexuality, so I guess you should take a page out of their book (well books rather). Actually your ilk has stolen many a thing from Odinism now that I'm on the topic. Ever wonder why your holidays are when they are? And no, Jesus was not born December 25th lol.

    Oh really. That's interesting, I will ask my professors to quit using those dang cloud god books.
    Your professors teach from the bible? That is the saddest and biggest disgrace to education I have ever heard in my life. I really truly feel sorry for you. Getting no education is better than being "educated" by the worst piece of filth to ever slime its way across the literary table. I'll tell you what, I'll write a book of nonsense, bigotry, hate, and hilarity, and you can be exclusively educated from that. What "school" do you go to? University of Ignorance?

    Doing anything that doesn't agree with the teachings of Christ is a cult. Look that one up.
    Maybe YOU should look that one up. Jews and Muslims aren't considered a cult, and they don't have a man-crush on Jesus.

    Your a bigot for thinking that homosexuality should produce children in the first place.
    Wait..what? That argument makes negative sense. I guess bacterial fission, parthenogenesis, vivipary, etc, are all sins too. Hmm seeing as most life on earth is bacteria, hell must be a dirty place .

    That's all you hear from the extremist left that we're bigots and haters. Yes we're just so full of hate for everyone. Yeah we discriminate, that's what we're all about. All you can do is point the finger and flame. Come up with something better please it's weak!
    You don't deserve something better until you can come up with better evidence than "because its in the bible".
    Z polski y dumny
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  6. #62
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    holy cow... this forum still moves like greased lighting!

    Rampuppy, first I'll say I'm sorry you don't support us. Secondly, what's with the uterus talk? Why do people assume it's all about sex? This is a stereotype that homosexuals are overly promiscuous and all we do is have sex all day long. It's NOT about sex! We don't care that we can't have children. Our bodies are different but our LOVE is the SAME love as a man and a woman can share. As far as "one nation under God" , It wasn't there originally I don't believe. And His name should be taken off our currency, too.
    I think you misunderstood my point friend. I am not debating your love w/ you, love is something that cannot be pigeonholed and debated, i can not contradict your love for your partner, nor can i know what it is like so I won't dishoner it by saying its A b or C.

    My point was, you keep saying you won't be equal, well, equality isn't just the word marriage, it is't just one slice of what you want, in this instance, your talking about an institution that was founded for the sole purpose of forming a new familial unit, making babies, and so on. my point was that your biologically incapable of being = in this sense.

    Nor did I say that you were promiscuous, nor did I paint your entire community w/ that broad brush. Do I support you? no, but nor do I stand against you. I don't know if you meant it to come off this way, but your statement "I am sorry you don't support us" to me makes it sound like if i am not with you i am against you, and i am somehow made smaller because of that choice, if that is what you meant, then you misunderstood me more than I thought.

    I will admit, I am somewhat torn over the issue, I am a litteralist when it comes to the bible, and Homosexuality is not shall we say, a good thing in that book. There are passages that specifically speak towards it being wrong.. the big difference is, i think what people do in their bedrooms is their business, not mine. I simply don't care one way or the other. I do however, care when i feel an institution that is properly defined is under attack.

    I know you really want the term 'marriage' to be rubber stamped ontop of civil union.. but i just honestly don't get it. Why not put some other word on there, make it up, and deny it to the heteros.
    \"Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: \"Mankind\". Basically, it\'s made up of two separate words - \"mank\" and \"ind\". What do these words mean ? It\'s a mystery, and that\'s why so is mankind.\" ~ Jack Handey

  7. #63
    zappafan's Avatar
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    Mokele, if you want to twist scriptures and liberalize churches to suit a political agenda I can't stop you. My point was very clear about separation of church and state and it would be fair to liberal and conservative, politician and layman.If you want conservatives to stay out of your life (politics), why don't you offer the same courtesy and stay out of their lives (the church=assembly of believers)? Is that concept not fair and balanced? I did not mention anything "bigoted" and I take offense to your blanket statement, but Christ does not condone sin. Who Was it that preached Hell more than anyone else in the New Testament and to repent and believe the Gospel? Yes, you are right it was the modern charicature of Jesus "soft on sin" and therefore "unholy" and sin "can" stand in His presence. Would you like me to infer you are a communist because you are a dissenter? Can we not shun labels for the sake of civil argument, and your assumptions that all conservatives have an agenda to further some kind of "reich". I have not studied slavery extensively throughout the Bible , Mokele, but I can tell you Homosexuality is mentioned of God in the New Testament in more than one place. If you want to assume "those rules" were inserted by others into the New Testament I can't stop you. However, I will follow the thread of truth concerning sin as relevant to salvation from Genesis to Revelation. Remember how Paul warned how he could see after he died that men would bring in heresies into the church (assembly of believers)? I believe that is the liberalizing of the church from the evident truth (literal grasping) of God's word.

  8. #64
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    My point was, you keep saying you won't be equal, well, equality isn't just the word marriage, it is't just one slice of what you want, in this instance, your talking about an institution that was founded for the sole purpose of forming a new familial unit, making babies, and so on. my point was that your biologically incapable of being = in this sense.
    ...We don't care what it was or was not originally for. Today, it's regulated by the state. The state doesn't include is in a legal act. Marriage today is not a holy covenant with God, it's a license. If someone wants to disagree with me, I'll say "Well, where's your license? There it is? Oh ok, I thought I was right." We want a license that says "Marriage" on it. That is what we want. We do not care WHY people originally got married. That's irrelevant.

    The gay community wouldn't deny the heterosexual community anything. We know what it's like to be excluded. If you think words don't matter, get a civil union instead of a marriage or else don't say that words don't matter.


    So, yes. If you don't believe we should get married, but fully support civil unions, then you don't want us to be equal, in my book. This is the same thing as saying "Sorry! You can't have an Alfa Romeo! But that jeep over there does the same thing with the same features!" or "Sorry! No high school diploma for you! You're more than welcome to a GED, though."


    This is my point, Zappa. You mention Paul. I mean.. who cares? So what? What does this have to do with today? America doesn't care about Paul or what he saw. Why don't the religious just realize that no one but other religious people care? If it wasn't for the "liberalization" of the church, I wouldn't even believe in Jesus today. Are you saying I was better as an atheist, than I am now, interpreting God in my own way and having a relationship with Christ? No snickering, Phission! Lol. You guys can say stuff like "Well the covenant with the Gentiles made blah and blah and blah not apply to us." and I can say "Go ahead and add homosexuality to that list." and you'll say "Well... all except THAT one..."..... see how weak that argument is? It's so funny without meaning to be, it could be an SNL skit. Just a transcript of this thread could be their script.

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