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Thread: Church learns Vet was gay, cancels memorial

  1. #65
    Kung Fu Fighting! NeciFiX's Avatar
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    If you were gay, would you want to not be able to marry? People marry as a way to represent true love, gay love can be as strong as heterosexual love. It's not exactly someones fault that they are gay, it's natural, because of something that occurs naturally beyond their power happens doesn't mean they should be shunned and given lesser privileges. That sounds awfully familiar, sounds like slavery. Except in this case, it's not physical slavery, it's social slavery, and the only way to fix that is for people to learn to accept people for who they are, this is a country of people to be united, however different they may be, or are we only going to give strength to some and bring others to their knees?
    - NeciFiX

  2. #66
    Doing it wrong until I do it right. xvart's Avatar
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    Personally, if it is true that a lord or a savior's teachings instructed me to look down upon others or think less of others based on reasons they can't control is not a lord or savior that I want to follow. You can take that one of two ways: 1.) the lord or savior is a just entity that believes in equal and just treatment of everyone; or, 2.) I am spiritually misguided and have no hope of salvation. Either interpretation is fine by me because it is simply an interpretation. If on judement day I stand before god I will accept either decree he might hold for me with pride and self-worth. I'll never know until I die and I'm perfectly comfortable with that because I value the company of those around me.

    xvart.
    "The tragedy of life is not that every man loses; but that he almost wins."

    "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

  3. #67
    herenorthere's Avatar
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    I missed a few hours and this post mushroomed beyond what I'm willing to read. But I skimmed through and think someone said government should only be involved in the civil union business, not the marriage business. Amen. If the Southern Baptists don't want to marry gays and the UCC Congregationals do, government should stay out of it. And if a married couple wants to have their wedded bliss recognized by the government, they can file for a civil union.
    Bruce in CT

    Madness is something rare in individuals but in groups, parties, peoples, ages it is the rule. Friedrich Nietzsche

  4. #68
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    Taken from :
    http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/wedd...ageBenefit.htm




    A. According to Lambda Legal Defense, more than 1,400 legal rights are conferred upon heterosexual married couples in the United States. By not being allowed to marry, gays and lesbians are denied these rights. Even in the state of Massachusetts, the only US state with legalized gay marriage, most of the benefits of marriage do not apply, because the Defense of Marriage Act states that the federal government only recognizes marriage as "a legal union of one man and one woman as husband and wife".

    1. Joint parental rights of children
    2. Joint adoption
    3. Status as "next-of-kin" for hospital visits and medical decisions
    4. Right to make a decision about the disposal of loved ones remains
    5. Immigration and residency for partners from other countries
    6. Crime victims recovery benefits
    7. Domestic violence protection orders
    8. Judicial protections and immunity
    9. Automatic inheritance in the absence of a will
    10. Public safety officers death benefits
    11. Spousal veterans benefits
    12. Social Security
    13. Medicare
    14. Joint filing of tax returns
    15. Wrongful death benefits for surviving partner and children
    16. Bereavement or sick leave to care for partner or children
    17. Child support
    18. Joint Insurance Plans
    19. Tax credits including: Child tax credit, Hope and lifetime learning credits
    20. Deferred Compensation for pension and IRAs
    21. Estate and gift tax benefits
    22. Welfare and public assistance
    23. Joint housing for elderly
    24. Credit protection
    25. Medical care for survivors and dependents of certain veterans


    These are just a few of the 1400 state and federal benefits that gays and lesbians are denied by not being able to marry.

    Most of these benefits cannot be privately arranged or contracted for within the legal system.

  5. #69
    Capslock's Avatar
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    Indeed the "marriage" being discussed is solely a legal contract with the state that confers all manner of financial and obligation-related benefits and protections. To wish to deny those protections and financial benefits to gays is to simply lack humanity and a sense of fairness out of some misguided sense of Biblical obligation (nowhere in which it says to restrict the legal rights of heretics.)

    Churches can "marry" whoever they want, heck they can marry 10 people together or two dogs if they want. That's called freedom of religion. It is ONLY the state legal contract at issue. And the Constitution is supposed to give us equal protection under the law - a concept a bit too complicated for some, it seems.

    Capslock
    Malo Periculosam Libertatem Quam Quietum Servitium

    My photos are copyright-free and public domain

  6. #70
    herenorthere's Avatar
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    Plenty of heteros are in miserable marriages and, if you can't condone the gay life, why not offer them the same pain?
    Bruce in CT

    Madness is something rare in individuals but in groups, parties, peoples, ages it is the rule. Friedrich Nietzsche

  7. #71

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    The slavery of the Bible is different than the slavery of the South. Today the slavery of the Bible is related to today's debt (credit cards, loans, etc.).
    So it's OK to commit atrocities against people for the right reasons?

    No one suggested making seperate water fountains and bathrooms for homosexuals. Linking homosexuality to the AA civil rights movement is weak.
    No, it's the truth. Ok, so there was never slavery of homosexuals, but there has been rampant discrimination, up to and including legal execution, for centuries.

    Hate is hate. And, oddly enough, both times conservative churches were strongly pro-hate.

    Oh really, then your claiming that there has never been a gay man who's been with a woman before? Oh and your claiming that bisexuals don't exist either right? Or transsexuals? Right.
    Strawman fallacy. I said that sexual orientation is an issue of physiology, not morality, and there is no doubt about that. Bisexuals respond physiologically to both sexes, and transgender do to their preferences.

    I'd ask you to debate the point, but since you clearly don't have a logical leg to stand on, you'd just embarrass yourself more.

    Maybe because the definition has historical and religious meaning that has co-existed longer than the current liberalizing west society of today?
    Older is irrelevant. The old definition of marriage forbid mixed-race marriages, and, surprise surprise, churches were against the repeal of anti-misegination laws.

    I can't dictate to others how to live but they can dictate to me? Sorry that just doesn't make sense.
    How does someone else's marriage dictate how you live?

    Oh, that's right, because you're so narrow-minded and intolerant that you can't stand to know that other people are different from you.

    Oh really. That's interesting, I will ask my professors to quit using those dang cloud god books.
    If they're using the Bible as a reference for history, yes, ask them to stop, or your degree won't be worth much.
    WRONG. Since you obviously lack expertise in this field let me tell you something. To be a Christian is to be a follower of Jesus Christ. Doing anything that doesn't agree with the teachings of Christ is a cult. Look that one up.
    Oh, so you aren't a Christian then. No, sorry, you aren't, because you don't follow every single rule that Bob's First Church of Nowhere follows.

    I explicitly said not to commit the "No true scotsman" fallacy, and you reply with a textbook example.

    Churches that accept gays may be a more liberal version of Christianity, but they are Christian, whether you like it or not. Next you'll claim that Catholics aren't Christian.

    Your a bigot for thinking that homosexuality should produce children in the first place. It takes two different accessories last time I checked and there's a good reason for it.
    I'm sorry, what? How is letting others live their lives their way bigotry? Do you even own a dictionary? I ask nothing, nothing, but that you refrain for forcing others to follow your obsolete morals.

    in this instance, your talking about an institution that was founded for the sole purpose of forming a new familial unit, making babies, and so on. my point was that your biologically incapable of being = in this sense.
    So infertile couples should be denied marriage?

    to me makes it sound like if i am not with you i am against you
    Ever vote for a politician who in turn voted against gay rights? Then you're against us.

    Homosexuality is not shall we say, a good thing in that book. There are passages that specifically speak towards it being wrong..
    There are also passages which say it's a mortal sin to wear cloth of two different fabrics and eat shelfish.

    If you want conservatives to stay out of your life (politics), why don't you offer the same courtesy and stay out of their lives (the church=assembly of believers)? Is that concept not fair and balanced?
    Sure. So that means legal abortion across the board, gay marriage, stem cell research, the abolishment of all 'blue laws' regulating the sales of liquor, and no more attempts to push creationism into schools. Comply with that, and I'll consider it a worthwhile separation of church and state.

    but Christ does not condone sin. Who Was it that preached Hell more than anyone else in the New Testament and to repent and believe the Gospel?
    So, you're content going to hell because you wear cotton-nylon blends?

    Can we not shun labels for the sake of civil argument, and your assumptions that all conservatives have an agenda to further some kind of "reich".
    No. Because the conservatives *do* have precisely that agenda. Look up Dominionism. Welcome to the ugly truth - the Republicans are willing party to a movement to create a theocracy. And I apply the label of bigot to anyone who opposes equal rights, no matter what their reason.



    If this is what Christianity is about, then I would ally myself with Satan over God. Time for a regime change.

    Mokele
    Last edited by xvart; 08-17-2007 at 05:51 PM. Reason: bypass word filter
    \"With malleus aforethought, mammals got an earful of their ancestor's jaw.\"
    --J. Burns, on the evolution of auditory ossicles.

  8. #72
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    I hate to defend anything Outsiders says, but two people mentioned his joke about his professors. I think he was trying to say he has real professors who teach from history books, and when he made a reference to the bible it was sarcastic, guys. He was saying that's what his professors taught him from a history book or taught from their own opinion.

    Outsiders is not known here to be a funny person. Keep that in mid next time he tries to make a joke

    I don't believe in a secret republican agenda. I do believe in the Gay Mafia, though. Watch out!

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