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Thread: San Francisco considers injection room

  1. #9
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    Would you rather have had those 800 people die? And FYI, making such a general statement isn't nice at all. I mean, that's sort of like saying anyone who supports the republican party is a fundamentalist Christian fanatic. It's just not good manners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JustLikeAPill View Post
    Would you rather have had those 800 people die? And FYI, making such a general statement isn't nice at all. I mean, that's sort of like saying anyone who supports the republican party is a fundamentalist Christian fanatic. It's just not good manners.
    So everyone in San Fran who illegally abuses drugs die? If that were the case, there wouldn't be a problem with drug abusers. I would rather those 800 not have a safe haven to practice something that is illegal and something that will end up destroying their lives even more. How are you saving lives anyways if the person is just a zombie? Money shouldn't be wasted so they can illegally shoot up under the supervision of a nurse, but rather treatment programs that actually DO something to help them. A building where shooting up is pretty much termed "legal" is not going to HELP them. Not only that but the number of drug abusers will grow because they know they can go somewhere safely.

    Maybe my statement was general and maybe it wasn't. There's just no logical reasoning to support something like this except the fact that the person maybe in fact a fellow drug abuser. Honestly who is this helping, the person who has a drug problem or a person who would like to experiment "safely". It's not hard to see this is just enabling drug abusers to continue abusing.
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

  3. #11
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    did you read the article? No one said everyone who abuses drugs dies. It says:

    While 800 overdoses have occurred on the premises, none resulted in death because of the medical supervision provided at InSite, said Thomas Kerr, a University of British Columbia researcher who has extensively studied the program. His research also has shown an increase in addicts seeking drug treatment and a decrease in abandoned syringes, needle-sharing, drug-related crime and other problems since the clinic opened, he said.

    I don't understand you asking how they are saving lives if they are zombies anyway? If they overdose and are saved, that is saving lives. It seems very self-explanatory to me. Maybe i'm so whacked out on drugs I can't think clearly, but I do not understand it when you say "There's just no logical reasoning to support something like this except the fact that the person maybe in fact a fellow drug abuser." My logic is 800 lives saved = good.

    If treatment options are offered, then this would be one of the few places they are exposed to options. Do you think the average drug abuser hangs out at Narcotics Anonymous meetings, rehab center parking lots and methadone clinics when they're bored?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JustLikeAPill View Post
    did you read the article? No one said everyone who abuses drugs dies. It says:
    No I didn't read the article. I responded to your "It saves lives" rationale.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustLikeAPill View Post
    I don't understand you asking how they are saving lives if they are zombies anyway? If they overdose and are saved, that is saving lives. It seems very self-explanatory to me. Maybe i'm so whacked on on drugs I can't think clearly, but I do not understand it when you say "There's just no logical reasoning to support something like this except the fact that the person maybe in fact a fellow drug abuser." My logic is 800 lives saved = good.
    How are you saving a life if the person is enslaved to their drug addiction and instead of treating the drug addiction you offer a "safe" place for them to do it? What guarantees that these drug abusers will not overdose at home or at a friends house? You also fail to answer how this place won't be abused by new drug abusers. This would practically educate new abusers!

    If I take a known recovering alcoholic to a bar and give them alcohol, how is that person going to defeat their alcoholism? I'm just enabling and encouraging them to be an alcoholic, the same can be said about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustLikeAPill View Post
    If treatment options are offered, then this would be one of the few places they are exposed to options. Do you think the average drug abuser hangs out at Narcotics Anonymous meetings, rehab center parking lots and methadone clinics when they're bored?
    If treatment options are offered.... But they aren't offered! Instead they built a club house for these people to get legally wasted.
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

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    First I dont apperciate being called a drug abuser as this is completely false. Secondly did you not read the article because there is a whole paragraph that talks about how more people are seeking treatment, there are fewer abandon needles around (which is safer for everyone), a reduction of crime related to drug abuse. I can see you are going to completely ignore evidence that is counter to your beliefs on the subject. What you said is along the lines of blaming homelessness on homeless shelters, should we get rid of those too while we are at it. Orphanages create orphans too so better do away with those. How about womens shelters for abused women, I bet those cause domestic violence too, time to cut those out of the budget.

    Also I too am in support of more funding to treat people with drug problems, but I ask you how do you propose that we find the people with these problems? Should we just hire a bunch of social workers and have them hang out with drug dealers so they can get a good list of who needs help? maybe the government could start selling drugs, then arrest people when they buy them so that we can treat them.
    "We're terrible animals. I think that the Earth's immune system is trying to get rid of us, as well it should." - Kurt Vonnegut

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    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    First off, you shouldn't form an opinion until you read the article.

    We are working with lots of assumptions here.
    1: you're assuming they are all addicts.....that's not a requirement
    2: you're assuming the want to quit........most dont
    3: that a person would prefer to be dead than to be a drug addict.........that's an individual issue.


    Now then, you say "What guarantees that these drug abusers will not overdose at home or at a friends house?"

    My answer to that is, nothing at all. That is the entire point that those 800 people could have easily died at home or somewhere else where there was no nurse.

    You say "You also fail to answer how this place won't be abused by new drug abusers. This would practically educate new abusers!"

    My answer to that is, I never said it would, no one said you had to be a old-timer, and there is a debate on what is and is not "abuse". If "newbies" for lack of a better word inject drugs in the clinic, that is not abusing the clinic since THAT"S WHAT THE CLINIC IS FOR!!!! The point is if you want to shoot up, they will give you a safe place to do it, a clean needle, and a place to chill out and if you DO OD, a nurse will save you. Why should it matter if a person is new or not? The nurses would also not assist or show people how to use a needle. Of course they could watch others, or they could use the internet beforehand. You do not need to go to a clinic to educate yourself on drug use. Anyone with a computer can learn anything the heart desires pertaining to drug use for free.

    You're right that a recovering alcoholic can't defeat alcoholism if you take them to a bar and buy them a drink. We aren't talking about recovering drug addicts. We are talking about drug users who choose to do drugs instead of staying sober. These people are going to use whether there is a clinic and a supply of clean needles or not. These people are not making attempts to stay clean.

    If they aren't offered, they should be. At the same time, it must not be shoved down their throats because that will just make them leave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ktulu View Post
    First I dont apperciate being called a drug abuser as this is completely false. Secondly did you not read the article because there is a whole paragraph that talks about how more people are seeking treatment, there are fewer abandon needles around (which is safer for everyone), a reduction of crime related to drug abuse. I can see you are going to completely ignore evidence that is counter to your beliefs on the subject.
    "His research also has shown an increase in addicts seeking drug treatment and a decrease in abandoned syringes, needle-sharing, drug-related crime and other problems since the clinic opened, he said."

    The problem with the above is it doesn't show how they measured and came up with these results. Research can be skewed, and stats are almost always abused. What marks an increase of addicts seeking drug treatment? How many were seeking treatment before hand and after? How did they measure the decrease in drug-related crimes? It is a given that there would be a decrease in syringes and needle sharing, so that's not impressive results. Can anyone find some actual data on these studies?

    Quote Originally Posted by ktulu View Post
    Also I too am in support of more funding to treat people with drug problems, but I ask you how do you propose that we find the people with these problems? Should we just hire a bunch of social workers and have them hang out with drug dealers so they can get a good list of who needs help? maybe the government could start selling drugs, then arrest people when they buy them so that we can treat them.
    Is the purpose of this clinic to treat drug abusers or is it to make sure they don't die from OD?
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

  8. #16
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    The purpose of the clinic *sigh* as stated, is to give people a clean, safe place to shoot up and have medical attention in case they overdose. I guess whether or not treatment options are offered would depend on each individual clinic, and of course it wouldn't be at the clinic its self (naturally) but would probably have a counselor and some pamphlets or something.

    I'd love to see actual data, too. Maybe you can find some for us since you're genuinely interested? Most online and television news sources don't list EVERYTHING as most people don't care about the nitty gritty details.

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