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Thread: Non-Compliance

  1. #9
    Hello, I must be going... Not a Number's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustLikeAPill View Post
    The only reason I never said the pledge was because God is in it. I believe in God now but I still won't say the pledge. If your beef is about God being in the pledge, but you don't have a problem with the rest of it, just don't say the word God. If you're beef is with saying the pledge period, don't say it! There's no question that sucking it up and saying the pledge would be the easy thing to do, but do you want to take the easy way out and sacrifice your values? It's up to you.
    I used to just leave out the "under God" bit in the Pledge. That wasn't added until the 1950's by the McCarthy-ists to snare in "Godless commies". Also as I recall the right hand wasn't originally held over the heart but rather held straight out at shoulder level. That was changed when a smiliar salutes came into fashion in the late 1920's through mid 1940's.

  2. #10
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nepenthes_ak View Post

    but i do support the USA just not the way the Government is running things.
    When people say the pledge of allegience, what makes you think they are pledging allegiance to the Government instead of to the USA?

    seems to me the opposite would be true...the pledge is to the USA..not the government that happens to be in power this particular 4 year span of time..

    when I was in grade school, we didnt say "I pledge allegiance to Ronald Regan"
    and during the 90's I dont think school kids were saying ""I pledge allegiance to Bill Clinton"..the pledge does not change with administrations..which pretyt much proves right there that the pledge is to the country..not the current administration.

    You say you support the USA and are a patriot..then wouldnt you being showing that support by saying the pledge?

    im just not clear why you think the pledge of allegiance is showing support for George Bush and not the Country...im pretty sure the pledge was written long before he was born! Seems to me by not saying the pledge you are showing disrespect to the county you claim to support.

    thoughts?

    thanks,
    Scot

  3. #11
    N=R* fs fp ne fl fi fc L Pyro's Avatar
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    If I may be so bold. Your perspective is skewed. The pledge is not about the government. Nowhere in the pledge does it say: "and I support the machine which makes the nation lumber on."

    Take in the actual words. The Pledge of Allegiance is about supporting your country. It is about being a patriot.

    "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the USA"

    Translation = I am an American

    "And to the republic for which it stands"

    Translation = I believe in the society we live in

    (Note: "Republic" does not mean Republican)

    "One nation"

    Self explanatory

    "under God"

    Left in for the posterity of the founding father's intents. Take it or leave it as your beliefs in a higher power are your own

    "Indivisible"

    Translation = Unified as Americans, regardless of political affiliation

    "With liberty and justice for all"

    Or so the forefathers had hoped. Obviously not absolute but a heck of a lot better than most countries out there.

    So, a person who called themselves a patriot and actually meant it should have no problem saying the pledge because it is about supporting your country (which is what patriotism is) and not about supporting the monkey in a suit who "runs" the country.

    It sounds to me that in reality it is less about "being a patriot" and more about "being a non-conformist".

    If that is the case that is fine indeed, free country and all that. But, consider that when you refuse to conform you then make yourself obvious (which is the point I know.) And when you are looking for attention sometimes the attention you get is not always positive. When that happens you have to live with the situation you have created.

    There are fights that are worth fighting and there are fights that are not. You have to figure out for yourself which they are. And if you fight and lose, then you have to live with the repercussions. That is just part of life.

    Personally, I think there are probably bigger battles out there to fight. But that is just me. Rather than get myself shot down over something so trite I would say just stand up for the Pledge. Stand up but stay silent (after all, no one said anything about saying the Pledge...) If, for some asinine reason they come after you for not actually saying the Pledge then tell them okay and just mouth the words along. Not like they will know the difference unless they are standing right there next to you. BUt that is all just my 2 cents and you can take it or leave it. Make no difference to me.

    In the meantime, if I may, I recommend you go out and watch the movie 'SLC Punk'. I think you'll like it.
    'My love was science- specifically biology and, more specifically, when placed in a common jar, which of two organisms would devour the other.'

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  4. #12
    Nepenthes's Avatar
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    OMG! I have so much to say but I am going to try to be short here. I applaud you for your actions. I used to not say the pledge, and one day my math teacher just got fed up with me, and sent me to the principal's office. Needless to say this made a huge scene in front of the class, so I made one back. I said I would be glad to go to the principal's office and explain the situation to her. So i sit down in the principal's office with a poop-eating (filtered =/) grin on my face, and she started giving me grief. I cut her off mid-sentence, and I was very assertive. The conversation went something like this:

    Principal: So Mr. Farber says you aren't saying the pledge of allegiance in the morning. This kind of behavior won't be tolarated and...
    Me: WOAH, WOAH, WOAH. It is my legal right not to say the pledge. If I don't want to stand up and pledge to the flag then I absolutely don't have to.
    Principal: Well... you need to pledge to the flag during pledge time.
    Me: I don't know if you know this or not, but I can actually sue the school for trying to make me pledge. [I didn't actually know whether I could or not lol, but it sounded good at the time]
    Principal: Well, you should say the pledge every morning.
    Me: Well, I'm not going to. That is my legal right. And it is ridiculous that he pulled me out of class to send me here because he tried to violate my rights.
    Principal: [She did a complete 180] Well, you know what, you're right. You should get back to class so you don't miss anymore lecture.
    Me: I don't appreciate him wasting my time like this, I want you to have a talk with him. [I was a prick in high school who would do anything to get back at the teachers]
    Principal: I will, I will. Just get back to class.

    I was sooo stoked. I went back to class (smiling like a prick) and rubbed it in his face in front of the whole class. The whole class got quiet when I walked in the door and I was like, "yeah, the principal said I didn't have to get up for the pledge and she is going to have a talk with you later on." He asked to talk to me outside, and I basically rehashed what the principal told me. Lol the whole class was watching us talk outside. After that a couple other people stopped saying the pledge too lol. He also treated me completely different and was a lot more respectful.

    NEVER be afraid to fight for what you believe in. Some people are always going to try to erode your rights, and it is up to you to fight back. If the principal indeed tries to kick you out for not pledging, I am sure you can take the issue up with the regional head of education. So long as you are not being disruptive (which it sounds like you aren't), then you should be fine.

    Edit: Oh yea my high school was the school that made national news when the Vice Principal decided she was going to strip search the students at a school dance, in front of everyone... She was feeling up the students (girls mostly)... it was hilarious.
    - Daniel

  5. #13
    rattler's Avatar
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    kinda what i was thinking Pyro................especially this part:

    It sounds to me that in reality it is less about "being a patriot" and more about "being a non-conformist".

    If that is the case that is fine indeed, free country and all that. But, consider that when you refuse to conform you then make yourself obvious (which is the point I know.) And when you are looking for attention sometimes the attention you get is not always positive. When that happens you have to live with the situation you have created.

    There are fights that are worth fighting and there are fights that are not. You have to figure out for yourself which they are. And if you fight and lose, then you have to live with the repercussions. That is just part of life.
    cervid serial killer
    Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety
    I didn't get stimulated but he kept his promise on change, that's about all I got left!
    http://www.wolfpointherald.com/--http://www.safety-brite.net/

  6. #14
    Nepenthes's Avatar
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    I just read ScottyChaos' and Pyro's posts, and I don't believe that is the issue... This is like the argument that you can support our troops without supporting the war in Iraq. It's just not true. The troops fight the war, and perpetuate problems (although they may not do it by choice, they joined up by choice). The same goes for our government and our nation. The people in charge (head of the gov't) do atrocious things in the name of our country and tarnish it's name. Although we are built upon wonderful ideals, and excellent civil liberties, our controllers fail to uphold these founding beliefs. The pledging of the flag is just a means of creating a blind acceptance for this authority. This is why it's consistently drilled into our heads during school. How many people do you know who keep pledging allegiance daily, after K-12 school? Are they any less patriotic? And don't believe that by not pledging you are simply being non-conformist... It is true that your are not conforming, but it is not that simple. You are not conforming to the direction and intentions of the controlling powers and that is the issue. (heck maybe you don't believe in pledging to a nation under god, or that this nation provides liberty and justice for all...)

    I will say however, that I absolutely agree with a certain aspect of Pyro's post. By not pledging you do make yourself obvious which can be a bad thing... but in high school I don't think this is such a big problem. Later on in life though, dissent can bring you many problems and the repercussions will only get worse as our government becomes ever more controlling. (think Patriot Act. One woman actually had the F.B.I. come to her house because someone told them she had posters on her wall that were anti-bush)

    I just recommended this book to Clint, and I think you might actually enjoy it too. The book is "A People's History Of The United States" by Howard Zinn. It really helps clarify the truth behind U.S. history. If you want a shorter, easier read, I would suggest "Lies My Teacher Told Me" By James Loewen. If you want a more difficult read, I would suggest Hermann and Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent". Read some of that literature and you will see why I believe the pledge is just a method of creating blind acceptance. You are no less patriotic than the person who rises to mindlessly recite some words, or the person who slaps an American Flag sticker on their car (or a yellow ribbon for that matter).
    - Daniel

  7. #15
    rattler's Avatar
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    i figure this does have much more to do with being a non-conformist than being a patriot......not disagreeing with most ofyour sentaments, Nepenthes..........just figure its not so much what this situation is about..........nep_ak decided to do something cause it would make him stand out as a non-conformist, brought more attention to himself than he wanted essentally by picking the wrong battle.....is he in the right? sure.......but he still picked a fight and has to deal with the consiquences there of.......
    cervid serial killer
    Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety
    I didn't get stimulated but he kept his promise on change, that's about all I got left!
    http://www.wolfpointherald.com/--http://www.safety-brite.net/

  8. #16
    Nepenthes's Avatar
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    I'm not sure wanting to stand out as a non-conformist was his motive, but that is for him to say. As to those consequences...

    According to a 1943 United States Supreme Court ruling, students do not have to rise and pledge allegiance... Tell your principal to kick you out of school, so you can get a fat paycheck from the school funds after the lawsuit. Also, tell your mom you were rightfully defending your American rights, that she stood for in the military. Here is a link to some information...
    http://www.libertarianrock.com/topic...ge_rights.html
    Booyakasha... =) Check out these quotes from there... "Some students say that the daily pledge is an attack on their intellectual independence and makes them act like robots."
    "It's like a brainwashing technique," said student Sheila King. "You can't pound someone into patriotism."
    It is more patriotic to stand up for your rights than to stand up for the pledge.
    I love it.

    Lol I wish I found these sites before making my posts, and before you went to school today.

    Here is the actual Case:
    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...=319&invol=624
    Last edited by Nepenthes; 11-08-2007 at 12:02 PM. Reason: Added link for specific case... and more quotes...
    - Daniel

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