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Non-Compliance

  • #21
This is like the argument that you can support our troops without supporting the war in Iraq. It's just not true. The troops fight the war, and perpetuate problems (although they may not do it by choice, they joined up by choice).

Says the person with a soldier armed to the nines as his avatar...

There is a saying that I find more and more true as my days pass:

"If you are not a rebel at the age of 20 you have no heart. If you have not turned establishment by 30 you have no brain."

You young blood may not get it now but one day you probably will and like you you will likely laugh.

There are battles you have to pick in life.

Look at me. Quite the square yes?

Photo1.jpg


But what you would never guess from that pic is that I have Strung Out 'Blackhawks Over Los Angeles" blaring on the lab stereo. Just because my hair isn't pink and my pants and shirt fit does not make me less of a punk.

Be who you like, think what you like, do what you like. Makes no difference to me. Just remember that all actions have reactions. If you choose to poke a stick into a hornets nest that is your choice. But don't come crying to me if you get stung, you made the choice.

And as far as brainwashing is concerned... I tend to find that the person screaming "brainwashers" loudest has had their brains washed just as thoroughly by another source. I still find that most anarchists hate it when they get what they want because they forget that when there are no rule to keep them in check there are no rules to keep those who would kick their butts in check either.

But I digress.

I stand by my statement that it seems more about not conforming than about being "patriotic". He started the ball rolling, it remains to be seen if the laws of Newton allow for the ball to change direction or roll over him.
 
  • #22
I thought that saying was supposed to be about communism...
 
  • #23
Says the person with a soldier armed to the nines as his avatar...

Actually that is a Police Officer. I know it is hard to tell, but then again he is dressed in all black and not camo.

I still find that most anarchists hate it when they get what they want because they forget that when there are no rule to keep them in check there are no rules to keep those who would kick their butts in check either..

I can't speak for Nep AK on this one, but I will say that that is not what I am advocating. I believe change is needed, not an abolition of structure. Structure and a democratic society are a good thing, however the core values of a democratic society are being eroded. Some rules are not only good, but vital to the health, success, and function of a stable society. However, we cannot give up too much... this makes me think of a quote by Benjamin Franklin: "He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither." I understand the pledge issue is not directly related to this concept, however we do unwillingly relinquish some of our most basic freedoms in our society. And that is the same society which is represented by our flag.

And as far as brainwashing is concerned... I tend to find that the person screaming "brainwashers" loudest has had their brains washed just as thoroughly by another source.

I am not, despite what you may think, brainwashed. I am educated. I am informed. I know, intimately, the values which this country was founded upon and I believe in many of them. I however do not think that our government is upholding those values. BTW here is a definition of brainwashing: "any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, esp. one based on repetition or confusion". How many times have you heard the word terrorist? How do you think so many people were enthusiastically ushered into a war, for which almost none have approval for now? Because we are fighting terrorists right? Terrorists. Terror. Terrorism. Oh yeah and a little bit of oil and defense contracts. Terror.
 
  • #24
Look at me. Quite the square yes?

Yes! Duh! :-))

I stand by my statement that it seems more about not conforming than about being "patriotic".

Which is further supported by the title of this thread being "Non-compliance" rather than personal rights infringed or patriotism being questioned.

xvart.
 
  • #25
Oh I know you said he was in the right... I just wanted to give him the legal ruling for his reference. I did not mean to come off as arguing with you, or anyone else for that matter.

Oh yea, they also say he can sue if they try to violate this specific right.

gotcha.......working for a paper i deal with freedom of speech issues, though not as much as you would think cause its a right rarely messed with, atleast in Montana. deal far more with Montana's "Freedom of Information Act". actually what surprises me the most is alot of times when someone screams "its freedom of speach!"(though this time it is) they are either confused on the actual issue and its not the freedom of speech being screwed with its something else completely legal or they seem to think the constitutions guarranteed "freedom of speech" means "freedom od speech without consiquences"
 
  • #26
Non Compliance isn't a bad thing... Would you comply to the rules of slavery? Would you comply to internment camps of the Japanese? Would you comply to segregation? The word conform is pretty much interchangeable here.

Edit: I love your signature rattler... "Learn from history or repeat it folks"
 
  • #27
I find this thread fascinating! No flames, only constructive discussion!

I would like to make the point, that regardless of his motivation, Nep Ak has the right to sit and stay silent. No one here seems to disagree with that. We've all moved on to questioning his true motives, beleaguering the true definition of patriotism and whatnot.

But we all agree he can sit and stay silent, yes?

This is a perfect example of "I disagree with what you say, but I support your right to say it."

Oh, and Nep Ak, pet peeve of mine - please get the their (possesive), there (location) and they're (they are) thing right! Sheesh! :nono:
 
  • #28
Don't conform! Do you want to tell your children you gave in, or do you want to tell them you stood up for your rights?

The only reason I never said the pledge was because God is in it. I believe in God now but I still won't say the pledge. If your beef is about God being in the pledge, but you don't have a problem with the rest of it, just don't say the word God. If you're beef is with saying the pledge period, don't say it! There's no question that sucking it up and saying the pledge would be the easy thing to do, but do you want to take the easy way out and sacrifice your values? It's up to you.
Its standing for a pledge in higschool, clint. I never said ”say the pledge” I never said that “he should stand up”. I never said stand, I said remember standing does not mean saying the pledge. You can stand and still not say the pledge. But if you dont want to you dont have to... free country. I hardly think stating that is telling someone to give up their rights! If your just not standing because they want you to stand, that is wanting to be non conformist, and i think that a bit different than patriotism.
 
  • #29
I don't care WHY he doesn't want to stand. That's irrelevant. The facts are that he doesn't want to, they can't make him, and they are violating his rights. He could choose to sit because it's Thursday, or because he's too lazy to stand. Doesn't matter why he wants to stay seated, what does matter is that it's his right to do so.

The pledge is just a waste of time. It accomplishes NOTHING and is a bigger disruption in class than any one person sitting down could ever be. I ask you, did any of you feel moved everyday whenever you said the pledge? I know I didn't. I know that no one I know ever did. It was a mindless ritual that everyone performed for the SOLE reason that the people next to them did it, as well.
 
  • #30
JLAP..............for the record some of the board members dont view it as a mindless ritual.......

as far as WHY he did it.............of course its relevant.....he is with in his rights not to.....no one has argued that.......however its also a situation of picking your damn battles.....more than one person on the forum has read into the story that the main reason he didnt do it is cause he doesnt want to conform to what ever standard he doesnt want to be held........great no problem, however by doing so you need to be damn well aware that you are shining a bright spotlight on yourself........if yah dont like the attention, or dont want to deal with the consequences of your actions knowing full wel even if your right your going to have a fight on your hands............well than its prolly best to go through the damn motions until your out on your own and away from all the crap.
 
  • #31
If they don't, that's fantastic. I've never met a kid that was thinking of the people who died for their country when they said the pledge. They were thinking about who to ask to homecoming or if they have herpes or not. They stand, say the pledge, and sit. That's that and no one I've ever seen do it cares. If it means something to you, that's great. I hope you say it every morning if it means that much to you.


The consequences he is receiving are illegal. He can not legally be made to stand or speak, and he can not legally receive punishment or be discriminated against for not doing so. This is not about accepting the consequences. There are no consequences for his actions that can be implemented legally. End of story. The only legal consequences are a few dirty looks and maybe his teacher liking him a little less. I think Cody's a big boy and can deal with that.
 
  • #32
Clint, i like yah, but if you think there are no consequences just because something you did is legally right and what the other guy did is illegal........well than you dont have much real life experiance.....right or wrong there are consequences for every action you take....big, small.....illegal, legal........learning how to forsee most of these will go a long ways........even if you are right some fights just aint worth it.........
 
  • #33
No argument here. I've got practically no real life experience. I'm very sheltered :) BUT what can his principal do to punish him for not standing up and saying the pledge, legally? There is nothing the principal, or anyone, can to to punish him, and they can not make him do this legally.There are no consequences unless you consider the principal just not liking him a consequence. If Cody acts right and doesn't break any rules, there will be no problem. Of course the principal might decide to not turn his head the next time Cody does something, or might decide on a harsher punishment than he normally would have, but that's a gamble Cody has to make. The point is, there is no punishment that can legally be implemented for not standing for the pledge.

This is your senior year, right? Why didn't they make a big deal out of this for the last three years? Or if you decided to not say the pledge recently, why now? What changed? Doesn't matter, just wondering.

This is getting fired from the post office because you don't pray before your lunch break.
 
  • #34
main question will be.............can Cody afford to go to a different school district? cause i sure in the hell would have no interest staying there if A: i piss of the principle that bad by having his decision reversed or B: keep going there if i sue the school district........................you have never pissed off a teacher to the point they are out to get yah have you? legal or not other ppl can make your life hell........sometimes it just aint worth it.........whatever he does he better hope to hell the school board is on his side otherwise there could really be issues as the principal might very well keep working there even if both A & B happen.........speaking from experiance with school boards, some of them are down right idiots and even if you physically SHOW them the law they will still ignore it............others are quite intelligent, but i find them to be in the minority, most are either stupid or just ignorant of the laws..
 
  • #35
I knew of quite a few kids that it has been very important to back in highshcool, but many didn’t care too. For many, they didn’t feel much was important next to chasing the opposite (or same) gender around, which seemed to be everyone’s foremost preoccupation. The pledge seems to be something that grows in importance for older people.

As for if its legal, no one is disputing that its illegal and wrong, but like rattler said, school boards are not particularly inclined to hear about students rights.
 
  • #36
you calling me old Finch?? :grin:

as i said there are consequences for everything even if your right............if he wants to go after the school and principal, he should go for it, no problem the chances of him NOT winning the case are slim provided he has been 100% truthful with us. however before taking it to that level he has to ask himself, more importantly ask his parents if it is worth the fight.....i would defiantly take it before the school board before anything else......
 
  • #37
Of course not o- err friend :p (older by what like 5 years?) im just stating an observation that people who are older than highschool students seem to use the pledge andrespect it more than the younger people. As for everything else you said, no arguments there…
 
  • #38
I pledge allegiance to the flag = I am an american?

I am American yes, but this is your own interpretation, I DON'T beleive in the society, I do beleive in democracy yes, but not when its run by biased people who TEND to shove religion down peoples throat, True it is better than it used to be, but still he had no problem 2 years ago with letting the Christian "group" come into the lunch room and talk to us about god.

I have a quote that I've cherished, i don't remember who said it but I got it from some one on here.


"Patriotism is keeping true to the values that your country was founded on. If this means protecting your country from the government then thats what needs to be done. A patriot must be willing to speak out against its government and do what must be done to preserve the values that their country stands for. The most dangerous thing you can have in a democracy is blind patriotism (ie everyone loves Americans no matter what we do)."

I dont say the pledge cause i feel the AMERICA we see today, represents our government way to much. The things the government does are, horrid. Its not a dirrect reflection, but the things that they do have a HUGE impact on the way people in America and other countries SEE the FLAG.

What Am refusing to conform too? Practicing my rights? I love the ideas the USA were founded on, and it makes me literally want to cry when I see what happens every day with the things the government are allowed to do, I try to let my friends know try to get them to understand, but half of them don't care only a couple already know but wont do any thing about it and I don't know what the hell I can do since every one already thinks I'm a "nut job" any ways. No one listens to me. What battles can I fight when I cant do any thing, don't have money to do any thing. They listen to my other "punk" friends maybe they just seem more sane? Im not trying to not conform, I enjoy the way punk clothes fit, feel and its a way i can express my self, i get ridiculed so much. I go to a school that Has 2/5ths of the student body in FFA/AG (me included) The school has a field that they harvest from. The majority of the kids are hicks and wanna be gangseters. NO one understands the way i view things except my friends EVEN then they think I'm crazy at times.

In comment to SLC punk, It made me considered law school the end went something like "The best way to break the system is to become apart of it" <3 SLC punk.

If I may be so bold. Your perspective is skewed. The pledge is not about the government. Nowhere in the pledge does it say: "and I support the machine which makes the nation lumber on."

Take in the actual words. The Pledge of Allegiance is about supporting your country. It is about being a patriot.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the USA"

Translation = I am an American

"And to the republic for which it stands"

Translation = I believe in the society we live in

(Note: "Republic" does not mean Republican)

"One nation"

Self explanatory

"under God"

Left in for the posterity of the founding father's intents. Take it or leave it as your beliefs in a higher power are your own

"Indivisible"

Translation = Unified as Americans, regardless of political affiliation

"With liberty and justice for all"

Or so the forefathers had hoped. Obviously not absolute but a heck of a lot better than most countries out there.

So, a person who called themselves a patriot and actually meant it should have no problem saying the pledge because it is about supporting your country (which is what patriotism is) and not about supporting the monkey in a suit who "runs" the country.

It sounds to me that in reality it is less about "being a patriot" and more about "being a non-conformist".

If that is the case that is fine indeed, free country and all that. But, consider that when you refuse to conform you then make yourself obvious (which is the point I know.) And when you are looking for attention sometimes the attention you get is not always positive. When that happens you have to live with the situation you have created.

There are fights that are worth fighting and there are fights that are not. You have to figure out for yourself which they are. And if you fight and lose, then you have to live with the repercussions. That is just part of life.

Personally, I think there are probably bigger battles out there to fight. But that is just me. Rather than get myself shot down over something so trite I would say just stand up for the Pledge. Stand up but stay silent (after all, no one said anything about saying the Pledge...) If, for some asinine reason they come after you for not actually saying the Pledge then tell them okay and just mouth the words along. Not like they will know the difference unless they are standing right there next to you. BUt that is all just my 2 cents and you can take it or leave it. Make no difference to me.

In the meantime, if I may, I recommend you go out and watch the movie 'SLC Punk'. I think you'll like it.
 
  • #39
I never said they were pledging to the government thats my view on how I intemperate the pledge, my Opinion.

I never said ANY thing about pledging allegiance to bush your putting words in my mouth, but allot of it is BUSH's doing but its not just bush. Every one makes it seem like you become an instant patriot when you say the pledge. But who the hell still says the pledge out side of school, Teachers and student's, the only people who really say the pledge any more.

When people say the pledge of allegience, what makes you think they are pledging allegiance to the Government instead of to the USA?

seems to me the opposite would be true...the pledge is to the USA..not the government that happens to be in power this particular 4 year span of time..

when I was in grade school, we didnt say "I pledge allegiance to Ronald Regan" ;)
and during the 90's I dont think school kids were saying ""I pledge allegiance to Bill Clinton"..the pledge does not change with administrations..which pretyt much proves right there that the pledge is to the country..not the current administration.

You say you support the USA and are a patriot..then wouldnt you being showing that support by saying the pledge? ???

im just not clear why you think the pledge of allegiance is showing support for George Bush and not the Country...im pretty sure the pledge was written long before he was born! ;) Seems to me by not saying the pledge you are showing disrespect to the county you claim to support.

thoughts?

thanks,
Scot
 
  • #40
as i said he is in the right...................however do i think this whole thing has to do with him getting more attention than he intended on getting from not saying the pledge.......


I never said any thing about wanting more attention if any thing I wish people would shut up about the way I like to look. I dont WANT or NEED attention. ???

If I did i would wear a hat like this :jester:
 
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