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Thread: Putting American freedoms in perspective

  1. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktulu View Post
    Ok, first people need to realize there is no pan-Islamic world thought pattern like they seem to think. Islam like Christianity has many different sects of thought and practice. This instances does not represent Islam people need to remember that, this is an action of the SUDANESE GOVERNMENT, which has twisted Islam to suit its needs. Dont blame the belief for the abuses it is put too. If you are going to do that then Charles Darwin needs to be held responsible for eugenics. Remember you have too keep in mind who is actually committing the crime not just what twisted logic they used.
    I respect Islam and those who choose to practice it but it's becoming harder and harder to believe your argument. Where are the decent Muslims who despise what is being done in Sudan? Why aren't they protesting, why aren't they being vocal? The only protesting and the only voice the Islamic community has is coming from the "extremists", they need to stand up for their faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by ktulu View Post
    Also someone mentioned that Christianity committed its major crimes in the past. You seem to be ignoring facts like the creation of Israel after WWII and the continued funding of Israel by many Christian organization even in the face of crimes against humanity.
    Tell me something Ktulu, since you believe this matter isn't a double-edged sword. What determines if land belongs to a certain group of people? Is it the amount of years held in ones possession? Is it whoever most recently takes over the land using military force? If it's the latter (because we know the Jews have lived in that region longer than Muslims), then are you trying to say that because the Arab's took the land that is called Israel today by force in the 13th century, that it belongs to them? If we were going to use this methodology then why aren't the Jews the rightful owners today?

    Quote Originally Posted by ktulu View Post
    There is the justification for the war in Iraq that God told George W. to do it. The dominion movement. Suppression of Science and calling for the subjection of women. Need I continue. Every organized religion has and will continue to be abused as long as it can be utilized to move the masses. Face it organized religion is the opiate of the masses.
    I agree that religion can be abused by those who have power. If anything is an opiate it would be ignorance. For if you have true faith in what you believe you should be able to see through the deceit of the corrupted and be vocal against them. Yet we don't see that today from the non-extremists Muslims.
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
    I think most people strive to be moral individuals no matter what they are, i dont need authority to be moral. My morals may be different from what some people think god's are,
    Here's the problem with this premise. Without moral authority, who's morals are right and who's morals are wrong? I can list an infinite list of things that you could judge as moral or immoral. I can then go up to some random person and ask them to judge that same list as moral or immoral. Most likely the lists will not be the same and therefore who is moral?

    For instance lets say you believe murdering is immoral. We'll let I stand for immoral, M stand for moral.

    You say: Murdering = I
    Person 2 says: Murdering = M

    How can murdering be both immoral or moral? It can't, it's either moral or it's immoral. It is either right or wrong. What basis does your morality over rule person 2's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
    but everyone has their own opinion on what god's morals are sometimes it seems anyways.
    You don't have to ask what people believe are God's opinions on morals, He states them clearly in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
    Is it really your birthday?
    Happy birthday! I must make a birthday thread!... but wait i don't see your name in the birthday box at the bottom!
    Thanks! It's not showing up down there because it was on the 25th .
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

  3. #19
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    I respect Islam and those who choose to practice it but it's becoming harder and harder to believe your argument. Where are the decent Muslims who despise what is being done in Sudan? Why aren't they protesting, why aren't they being vocal? The only protesting and the only voice the Islamic community has is coming from the "extremists", they need to stand up for their faith.
    Something that I have noticed is that extremists in everything always seem to be more vocal… and get the most attention. Sometimes moderates just get squeezed out of the situation, and their not exactly as attention-grabbing as teddy-bear haters. The news on this subject, if you look closely, has mentioned several moderates saying they did not find this offensive… and the moderate defense attorney has to carry around a gun there because of death threats. Perhaps in Sudan, speaking out publicly my cost you your life, and that would really be a hard situation to be in, if being vocal would cost your families life. In Sudan.


    You don't have to ask what people believe are God's opinions on morals, He states them clearly in the Bible.
    But sometimes he does not, and sometimes its open to interpretation by the reader. Some people will state god hates gays, some people will tell you what god thinks, and they contradict often. Like, why would god hate anyone? I thought he loved? But see what I mean? There is nothing on this earth that is not subject to the individuals own interpretations.
    that makes no logic

  4. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
    Something that I have noticed is that extremists in everything always seem to be more vocal… and get the most attention. Sometimes moderates just get squeezed out of the situation, and their not exactly as attention-grabbing as teddy-bear haters. The news on this subject, if you look closely, has mentioned several moderates saying they did not find this offensive… and the moderate defense attorney has to carry around a gun there because of death threats. Perhaps in Sudan, speaking out publicly my cost you your life, and that would really be a hard situation to be in, if being vocal would cost your families life. In Sudan.
    I understand the fear of being killed for speaking out against the extremists locally in Sudan. However there are what, over a billion+ Muslims world wide? Even in this country we have millions of Muslims, where their voices or demonstrations could be heard and seen. Silence can be seen as a form of agreement. Isn't it time to break the silence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
    But sometimes he does not, and sometimes its open to interpretation by the reader. Some people will state god hates gays, some people will tell you what god thinks, and they contradict often.
    Anyone who states that God hates gays is ignorant and doesn't know God. Instead they are trying to use God in a way that promotes their anti-gay agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
    Like, why would god hate anyone? I thought he loved? But see what I mean? There is nothing on this earth that is not subject to the individuals own interpretations.
    If God truly hated then why did He bother to redeem us? Why send His son into this world, so that He would live a sinless, self-less life and make atonement for something He didn't do?
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

  5. #21
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    Here's the problem with this premise. Without moral authority, who's morals are right and who's morals are wrong? I can list an infinite list of things that you could judge as moral or immoral. I can then go up to some random person and ask them to judge that same list as moral or immoral. Most likely the lists will not be the same and therefore who is moral?

    For instance lets say you believe murdering is immoral. We'll let I stand for immoral, M stand for moral.

    You say: Murdering = I
    Person 2 says: Murdering = M

    How can murdering be both immoral or moral? It can't, it's either moral or it's immoral. It is either right or wrong. What basis does your morality over rule person 2's?
    The problem with this is, who decides who's authority is superior? Through your own religion? Through society's accepted opinions? your own? Its not always black and white. Back and white is easy, but i think its more complicated than that.
    that makes no logic

  6. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
    The problem with this is, who decides who's authority is superior?
    It's not a matter of superiority but validity. I don't mind answering questions but it makes for more interesting debate when you answer back with responses and not questions. If someone were to tell you it is moral to murder someone, how would you determine who's right? What makes you think you're correct? Why can't person #2 be correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
    Through your own religion?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
    Through society's accepted opinions?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
    your own?
    No. I've already told you, my moral authority comes from God.
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

  7. #23
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    I didnt answer because I thought it was self-evident. Of course its wrong, I beleive that murder in all forms is inherently wrong, but i dont need religion or society to tell me its wrong, because i already know, and those are my own opinions. To answer my own above questions, that would be
    No, no, yes -for me
    that makes no logic

  8. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
    I didnt answer because I thought it was self-evident. Of course its wrong, I beleive that murder in all forms is inherently wrong, but i dont need religion to tell me its wrong, because i already know.
    Or you didn't answer because you have no answer. You still haven't shown why your belief that murdering is immoral is valid and that person #2's belief that murdering is moral is not valid. Stating that "because I already know" or I believe is not a good enough reasoning because anyone can say that.
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

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